Jaguar and Fitter get friendly

There were a number of ex-Soviet Bloc aircraft that turned up on the fire dump at Farnborough around the early 90s, presumed to be from a ‘clear out’ at RAE/DERA. They were belived to have been used in a UK equivalent of the Nellis ‘petting zoo’ and to evaluate systems rather than from any flight trials (Any such trials for the UK would have been more likely carried out at Boscombe, West Freugh or Woomera – or possibly Cyprus).

India and/or Egypt were always seen as the most likely source for these.

But they weren’t the first time Soviet hardware had been seen at Farnborough – I once spoke to a chap who recalled seeing ‘substantial parts of Soviet aircraft’ there during his RAF Service in the 60s. He wouldn’t be anymore specific.

Other sources have led me to beleive that some Soviet jet hardware was recovered from Egypt during the Suez Crisis, and there is apparently a document in the PRO giving an evaluation of the Hunter and/or Lightning against the MIg-15 (I haven’t seen it, but the guy who did says it doesn’t say that flying trials were carried out.)

IIRC they’re a long standing group (1970s) – never visited but passed their site whilst visiting a gypsum facility about 10 years ago! 🙂

Thanks Howard, I had worked that out, didn’t know where it was in the UK, or heard of an aircraft collection there, but Google has showed me the way!:)
Looks to be a sizable collection aswel.

Judging by the picture annotation and a quick check of W & R 22 I would guess Robertsbridge. 🙂

Where is it at the moment Chris?

Good Idea Jaguar,

it would be better than bits of threads here there and everywhere, if I now made a thread, for updates of this Su-7 cockpit 🙂

Perhaps you can have your own thread now to keep us updated on progress:)

pictures as follows,

she is build number 7907 , not serial number,

as you can see she is a single seater, I am sorry I couldnt get in any closer, to the stb side, it was jammed against the wall, where it hasnt moved as far as i can tell,

took some extra shots though,
and they had some lovely kit there, Hunter , Vixen, lightning. and much more, a really smart place with a club house to die for .

i think the pic’s say for themselves , the only positions you wouldnt have seen was the back end, which i nearly broke my neck trying to get to it, so sorry they are poor photo’s, I couldnt get to the wheel well, due to it sitting on the ground, i had no way of checking, i will check as soon as i can, but she will be in situ for a couple of months, at the request of the society, due to time constraints, etc.. thats ok, i got alot of sorting out to do in that time.
Please excuse the photo’s, there really was not much room in the sheds,

Oh , and i got a face book page if anyone wishes to join, its a open group,

name of the page is ” Sukhoi Su-7 Fitter Preservation group “

theres no group, etc,just me and friends 😀

i cannot put a direct link up to it, as it shows my own page, and not the groups, so if interested, go on facebook, and search for the above 🙂

Hi Teej,

Thanks for your input, TBH i dont know if it has or hasnt got any plates or markings in the wheel well, when i get it in a short while, i will take a few photo’s and find out if any markings are on it, another clue is , some of the paint is on the stb side, so the colour scheme might help ,if any is left .

lastly Many thanks for your input, it is very much appreciated.

she certainly is a mystery :confused:

No problem. Plates might lead to its identity? A long shot, but well worth sending off any plate markings to Sukhoi. You never know someone might be willing to dig in the records? On the modern military aviation forum section here there are many Russian speakers who can assist in compiling the query for you.

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/museum/su7/

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/contacts/ahc_sukhoi/

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/company/

TJ

Hi Teej,

Thanks for your input, TBH i dont know if it has or hasnt got any plates or markings in the wheel well, when i get it in a short while, i will take a few photo’s and find out if any markings are on it, another clue is , some of the paint is on the stb side, so the colour scheme might help ,if any is left .

lastly Many thanks for your input, it is very much appreciated.

she certainly is a mystery :confused:

..

makes me wonder if it really is egyptian, .. more than likely is, but unsure , shame we cant find its history ?:confused:

Is there any remnants of a construction plate in the wheel well? I would imagine that the fire damage is extensive and that any id numbers/plates were destroyed?

Amazing research was conducted on the plates to prove that some of the Constant Peg MiG-21s were ex-Indonesian examples.

http://www.indoflyer.net/forum/tm.asp?m=305370&mpage=6

TJ

TEEJ

just been through the post and links you sent, and went through it with great interest..

But, I noticed, there was not one mention of the Su-7 ….. Also i wonder if this is because the Indian Air force, had used the Su-7 since 1968, and I imagine they were part of the western allies etc, as opposed to soviet bloc,
and as such, all material regarding evaluation “Could” have been supplied by the Indians in previous years.. Its just a hunch ??..

I was sent a PM, regarding this matter, and if i managed to find a copy of Pete Cooper’s book detailing the work at the RAE at Farnborough .. It “Might” hold some clues ??

:confused:

Talking of parts.. in the future.. does anyone know anyone that might suggest where to start looking, cant afford the stuff yet, but to have a contacts list would be good 🙂

lastly.. thanks for sharing the Videos of the Su-22 Paul, there triffic 😀

Another possibility is the Afghan Su-7 defections to Pakistan during the Soviet occupation? Examples of Afghan Mi-24 Hinds whose crews defected are reported to have ended up in the west.

See post number 50 from MiGMan highlighting the Afghan Su-7s.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=56966&page=2

MiGMan wrote

‘other notible su-7 events are in 1983 an afghan Su-7 defected to Dal Bandin AB, Pakistan, as did another su-7 at an unknown time. one of the su-7 defectors was a Capt. Mohammed Nabi Karinzai defected with his su-7 in ’86’

The following thread highlights the Afghan Mi-24 defections with some ending up in the west.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17634

The Nellis petting zoo has an example of an Su-7. It was painted up to represent an Iraqi example. It could be an ex-Czech/Polish example or from Egypt/Afghanistan during the 80s? The histories of the types exhibited in the petting zoo are for the most part unknown outside of the U.S. authorities.

The Su-7 was superceded by the later swing-wing Fitters, so there was no need to have flying examples of the earlier type. Any Su-7s from the 1980s would just have ended up in a petting zoo as an example of type. The Germans were test flying the more advanced swing-wing Fitters and the US was test flying the ground attack variant MiG-23BN Flogger. With access to later model Soviet ground attack types the Su-7 would have been generally regarded as an older obsolete type.

MiG-23BN Constant Peg

http://fjphotography.com/constantpeg/forum/index.php?topic=15.0

Nellis petting zoo Su-7.

http://parrotheadjeff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/30Nov09-081C.jpg

http://parrotheadjeff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/30Nov09-088RC.jpg

Your Fitter certainly is a mystery!

TJ

I’ve got the Peter Cooper book and there is no mention of the Sukhoi, and I can’t remember much mention on Eastern Block stuff at all in there – possibly still classified when the book was written?
I used to be in FASTA, but the first I heard about this Su-7 was when you started chasing it

..

makes me wonder if it really is egyptian, .. more than likely is, but unsure , shame we cant find its history ?:confused:

I’ve got the Peter Cooper book and there is no mention of the Sukhoi, and I can’t remember much mention on Eastern Block stuff at all in there – possibly still classified when the book was written?
I used to be in FASTA, but the first I heard about this Su-7 was when you started chasing it

TEEJ

just been through the post and links you sent, and went through it with great interest..

But, I noticed, there was not one mention of the Su-7 ….. Also i wonder if this is because the Indian Air force, had used the Su-7 since 1968, and I imagine they were part of the western allies etc, as opposed to soviet bloc,
and as such, all material regarding evaluation “Could” have been supplied by the Indians in previous years.. Its just a hunch ??..

I was sent a PM, regarding this matter, and if i managed to find a copy of Pete Cooper’s book detailing the work at the RAE at Farnborough .. It “Might” hold some clues ??

:confused:

Talking of parts.. in the future.. does anyone know anyone that might suggest where to start looking, cant afford the stuff yet, but to have a contacts list would be good 🙂

lastly.. thanks for sharing the Videos of the Su-22 Paul, there triffic 😀

she was burned.. all on the Port side

Thats ok.Just use the starboard side as a pattern for frames and skins 🙂

Hello

Sorry for not putting much detail in my first post but I was in quite a hurry. Here is some more information, it is a Sukhoi Su 22M4, NATO reporting name of Fitter K, c/n 24603 and obviously from the photos wears the codes 4603 Red. Manufactured in 1984 it entered service in 1985 and I don’t quite know when it was officially retired but suspect it was in 2008.

The cockpit was obtained from Poland through a dealer, units of the Polish Air Force it served with were 6 PLMB, 40 PLMB, 39 ELT and 8 ELT, because of all these movements it had low hours and apparently the airframe was in quite good condition.

In answer to some questions,
-It won’t be at cockpitfest unless a rich benefactor pays for freight for me.
-The Jag is still number one.
-I had trouble with delivery due to all of the excitement of actually loading it on the truck it went on facing the wrong direction! I then had to get a second truck and tranship the cockpit from one to the other to turn it around. Not only that but it is too high to fit through my garage door and needed to be rolled on its side to fit through, then rolled back again.
-I don’t know why the clock is missing either, lucky I have one already, does anybody know what the other 2 missing gauges near the clock are?

Also I would like to say thank you to everyone on the forum who has given me support, advise and help not just with the Su22 but the Jaguar as well, I particularly owe a great debt to 12jaguar and VX927.

Lastly, congratulations to Merkle on your Su7, there is a lot of work ahead of you but hopefully it will be worth it in the end, below are some of my favourite Su22 vids for you.

Cheers Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAlqr50cVB4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ps0rRGOr-A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8NHhJahnlI&feature=related

Everyone seems a little vaque on “where” the mig and Su-7 come from, quite a few years ago now, i just cant figure out Egypt…. of all the nations we are friendly with, I imagine militarily, Egypt was not one of them, .. just a hunch, where did robertsbridge etc get the info she was egyptian ??.. and were they complete airframes in the uk ??. or just hulks ??.. it is one to ponder about, I wonder if there is any records at Kew., records of when they arrived ??. or would they still be under the Official secrets act.. Maybe ?:confused:

Well done, Paul and Merkle. Interesting types!

Merkle,

Egypt, in the late 1970s, realigned itself with the West and away from Soviet influence. The signing of the peace treaty with Israel brought with it rewards of US and western military equipment. Egypt was a rich source for western intelligence to obtain examples of Soviet equipment for testing and evaluation.

During the 1980s the Germans obtained two Egyptian Air Force Su-20 Fitter Cs. At least one of the Su-20 Fitter Cs was borrowed from the Luftwaffe test establishment by Boscombe Down. The USAF obtained later variant MiG-21s and MiG-23s from Egypt for use in their Constant Peg evaluations.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2007/April%202007/0407peg.aspx

Constant Peg images

http://www.fjphotography.com/constantpeg/4477images/index.html

Egyptian Su-20 obtained by the then West Germany.

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Fitter-C.html

The Egyptian break-away from the Soviet Union also benefited China. During the 1980s in exchange for arms China received Egyptian MiG-23s for technical evaluation.

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/09/egyptian-air-forces-mig-23-in-china.html

TJ

Everyone seems a little vaque on “where” the mig and Su-7 come from, quite a few years ago now, i just cant figure out Egypt…. of all the nations we are friendly with, I imagine militarily, Egypt was not one of them, .. just a hunch, where did robertsbridge etc get the info she was egyptian ??.. and were they complete airframes in the uk ??. or just hulks ??.. it is one to ponder about, I wonder if there is any records at Kew., records of when they arrived ??. or would they still be under the Official secrets act.. Maybe ?:confused:

She along with the Mig-21 are believed to have been at Farnborough for evaluation. Sadly between initial negociations and picking up the SU-7 and Mig-21 , the SU-7 had a burn carried out on it.