Japan killing whales for research????

My point is perfectly coherent…..man killing whales – I don’t like it!

Well thats fair enough………..as long as you dont try and impose those views on others.

My point is perfectly coherent…..man killing whales – I don’t like it!

That justification cannot be perfect because ‘rights’ are not absolute, they are an invention of man to moderate his behaviour; they do not exist in nature.

I don’t see where exactly I have failed to grasp that man has a choice; my whole argument has been that I personally find this choice abhorrent, and I freely admit that it is utterly hypocritical, illogical and sentimental.

Today that is a possibility, a ridiculous possibility, but three-hundred years ago the Inuit thought that they were the only human beings on the earth…but times change, and with them our ‘rights’ and more importantly our responsibilities.

I don’t fundamentally object to hunting, even (perversely) fox-hunting, and at least we agree about sustainability, but I think we’ve taken this about as far as we can without much in the way of convergence.

So in effect you have no coherent point?

I heard it was something to do with wale ear wax
no honest ear wax:confused:

Well, Charles’ ears are large enough….. 😀

I don’t recall ever seeing whale ears.

I thought Japan used the oil as some sort of lubricant in Honda gearboxes…:D

That is perfect justification.

That justification cannot be perfect because ‘rights’ are not absolute, they are an invention of man to moderate his behaviour; they do not exist in nature.

What you are failing to grasp is that man has a choice in most things he does, that includes farming livestock, yet he does it anyway.

I don’t see where exactly I have failed to grasp that man has a choice; my whole argument has been that I personally find this choice abhorrent, and I freely admit that it is utterly hypocritical, illogical and sentimental.

The Inuit do not have to be Inuit, they could easily uproot buy a farm in dorset and become self sufficient vegetarians if they so desired.

Today that is a possibility, a ridiculous possibility, but three-hundred years ago the Inuit thought that they were the only human beings on the earth…but times change, and with them our ‘rights’ and more importantly our responsibilities.

I don’t fundamentally object to hunting, even (perversely) fox-hunting, and at least we agree about sustainability, but I think we’ve taken this about as far as we can without much in the way of convergence.

Human beings are hunters, we have exactly the same ‘right’ to hunt whales as Lions do to hunt Zebra, its exactly the same principle.

Man has rights, but also responsibilities. We learn a lot about the things around us by studying nature, new vaccines, and drugs are created based on how animals and plants protect themselves… body armour like Kevlar and Aramide fibre is based on the way spider silk works except spider silk is hundreds of times more effective and lighter. What could we have learned from the Dodo, the Moa, the Haast Eagle, the thousands of other species now extinct… ask anyone studying dinosaurs what colour a T-Rex was… The answers to many of the questions we deal with day to day could have answers in the species we are obliterating. Now Wales are like Tigers and fur seals… cute and fluffy so to speak… there will be no massive groundswell of public anger at Hyenas or Vultures or flies becoming extinct, but at the end of the day Earth becomes a lessor place without any of them.

BTW my sister-in-law is Thai and she can’t understand us eating those cute Lambs…

Exactly why I said it should be done sustainably.;)

I see absolutely noproblem with Humans hunting for luxury goods or fun so long as the manner in which it is done is sustainable.

The problem is whales are migrant creatures ,using different corners of the world for feeding breeding and calving ect.

As I said I find whaling abhorrent under almost any circumstances. For example I accept that it is necessary for certain Inuit peoples to hunt Narwhal for the vitamin C in their skin, as the Inuit have no other source for this, I also accept that this hunting is an ancient practice and an important tradition within their communities.

But without that necessity no ‘rights’ are conferred on the rest of mankind…..and without necessity you are dealing with choice.

People choose to hunt whales and you cannot justify it by simply saying man is a hunter therefore it is his right.

That is perfect justification. What you are failing to grasp is that man has a choice in most things he does, that includes farming livestock, yet he does it anyway. The Inuit do not have to be Inuit, they could easily uproot buy a farm in dorset and become self sufficient vegetarians if they so desired.

As I said I find whaling abhorrent under almost any circumstances. For example I accept that it is necessary for certain Inuit peoples to hunt Narwhal for the vitamin C in their skin, as the Inuit have no other source for this, I also accept that this hunting is an ancient practice and an important tradition within their communities.

But without that necessity no ‘rights’ are conferred on the rest of mankind…..and without necessity you are dealing with choice.

People choose to hunt whales and you cannot justify it by simply saying man is a hunter therefore it is his right.

We can all cherry-pick the behaviour of some other creature to justify the behaviour of man when it suits us.

To take your example, it is common for the dominant male lion to be driven from his pride by a rival. The rival will then kill any lion-cubs before mating with the females in the pride.

Does this give humans the ‘right’ to behave in this way?

Are you advocating that we should look to nature for guidance on the treatment of the elderly, the disabled or those with learning difficulties?

Racism, murder, cannibalism, and slavery all occur in nature too, are these also ‘rights’ that human beings to take as given?

I am not cherry picking at all, that is you. You are raising the particular social activities of one species to remove the relevance of the most basic principles of human activity. I was merely making a comparison whereas your approach is flawed.

Human beings are omnivores, they eat meat and plants, they get the meat by killing other species.

Lets knock all this arguing on the head, we know where we stand and how we feel, whatever we say on here ain’t going to make a jot of difference in the scheme of things is it…..

Spoilsport!

I was just going for some popcorn……. :diablo:

Lets knock all this arguing on the head, we know where we stand and how we feel, whatever we say on here ain’t going to make a jot of difference in the scheme of things is it.
Just out of interest, has anyone on here, and I’m sure they have, actually been very close to a large Whale in the wild.
I’ve seen dolphins in France, Wales and off the English coast, along with porpoises, I’ve shot off to spots where Whales have been seen, North Devon, Lyme Bay, Scottish Isles, but, nothing.
My son Jack is an unusual person, he’s swam with natural Manitous in the Gulf of Mexico, I think he has that gift and an empathy with creatures and all mankind, as far as I know he is the only white European accepted Masai warrior and can deal with lions in the wild, but thats another story.
Ever had a Happy Christmas mobile call from a hunting Masai tribe in the Ngormo crater, ‘Jacky, we want you to become one of us’, what do you say.
I recall us going for a swim at Sea Palling in Norfolk and a seal really took a liking to him and they were both playing games with each other for ages, something I’ll never forget.
Things like this make you wonder.

Human beings are hunters, we have exactly the same ‘right’ to hunt whales as Lions do to hunt Zebra, its exactly the same principle.

We can all cherry-pick the behaviour of some other creature to justify the behaviour of man when it suits us.

To take your example, it is common for the dominant male lion to be driven from his pride by a rival. The rival will then kill any lion-cubs before mating with the females in the pride.

Does this give humans the ‘right’ to behave in this way?

Are you advocating that we should look to nature for guidance on the treatment of the elderly, the disabled or those with learning difficulties?

Racism, murder, cannibalism, and slavery all occur in nature too, are these also ‘rights’ that human beings to take as given?

I agree, but one vital fact is missing from all this ,evolution ,that’s what separates us from our animal cousins, we know are actions are killing this planet, we know whats morally write and wrong killing an animal just because its horn is supposed to be an aphrodisiac ,clubbing seals to death for their pelts when man made materials are far better ,is morally wrong. hunting the leviathans of the sea to extinction just because its a tradition to eat whale meat is also wrong.
Given our exhalted position at the very top of the food chain its our duty to keep this world alive.

Exactly why I said it should be done sustainably.;)

I see absolutely noproblem with Humans hunting for luxury goods or fun so long as the manner in which it is done is sustainable.

Human beings are hunters, we have exactly the same ‘right’ to hunt whales as Lions do to hunt Zebra, its exactly the same principle.

I agree, but one vital fact is missing from all this ,evolution ,that’s what separates us from our animal cousins, we know are actions are killing this planet, we know whats morally write and wrong killing an animal just because its horn is supposed to be an aphrodisiac ,clubbing seals to death for their pelts when man made materials are far better ,is morally wrong. hunting the leviathans of the sea to extinction just because its a tradition to eat whale meat is also wrong.
Given our exhalted position at the very top of the food chain its our duty to keep this world alive.

Where there ownership issues there so be careful, otherwise my only suggestion would be to make sure you have a good recipe at hand before making the kill, it would be a shame to get a prime specimen and then ruin it through poor cooking.;)

Nice one, it would probably serve my scrounging dogs right to end up in the pot.

I’m just off down the river to kill someones dog for tea, well, I’m a human, I’m a hunter, wer’re morally all Lions deep inside, doubt whether I’ll find any Zebra though, but you never know.

Where there ownership issues there so be careful, otherwise my only suggestion would be to make sure you have a good recipe at hand before making the kill, it would be a shame to get a prime specimen and then ruin it through poor cooking.;)

Have you tried farming whales? There is no difference between farming and hunting, its exactly the same.

I can’t find one that fits in my pond, otherwise it might be worth trying, much easier than lugging those bloody great harpoons about.

I’m just off down the river to kill someones dog for tea, well, I’m a human, I’m a hunter, wer’re morally all Lions deep inside, doubt whether I’ll find any Zebra though, but you never know.

I cannot agree with that. Its simply not a fair comparison.
Lions hunt for sustenance. We humans, or the Japanese in this case, are hunting whales for luxury goods. We have also grown beyond the need to hunt due to farming of animals.

There is a big difference.

Have you tried farming whales? There is no difference between farming and hunting, its exactly the same.