Japan-UK Fighter Project Sign Of Closer Defense Partnership

For what it’s worth, the original AW story is now out from behind the paywall and flightglobal acknowledge it too:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/japan-partners-with-uk-to-study-future-fighter-435612/

Sintra, so both sides (Japan and Britain) have a defined set of aircraft to replace with a matching set of characteristics. They have already stepped out of the European alliance with the Meteor seeker work, so whilst nothing is concrete, I think we can at least say that it makes sense to talk.

Remember also how they had a good chat over the UK MPA, it’s not complete pie in the sky.

I´ve never said it was a “Pie in the sky”, they are talking about it, i just dont quite believe that it will end in real hardware (but delighted if proven wrong), the latest Japanese designs do seem to be quite a bit of a massive beast.

Cheers

He is not a German Trump. Not at all. And he already has considerable political power. Wait a minute.. You think he’s a “German Trump” only because he talked to Putin..

Horst Seehofer is called the “German Trump” by part of the German press for a few months, more precisely from November last year, the likes of “Der Spiegel” have called him that, and its not hard to see why.

You really beleive the myth about Putin don’t you.

Dont have a clue what you are talking about

German companies are quietly boosting investments in Russia even as Western leaders are warning Moscow about possible new sanctions for its actions in Syria

That’s a joke, right?

Sintra, so both sides (Japan and Britain) have a defined set of aircraft to replace with a matching set of characteristics. They have already stepped out of the European alliance with the Meteor seeker work, so whilst nothing is concrete, I think we can at least say that it makes sense to talk.

Remember also how they had a good chat over the UK MPA, it’s not complete pie in the sky.

Or in another words, a Bavarian delegation lead by a man who is seen has the “German Trump” wich has a chance of getting elected Chancelor for the next two or three elections of more or less “ZERO”, known for wanting to shut down the borders, talking tough to anyone but Russia (and the USA) and by ending the sanctions to Russia went “Kowtowing” to Moscow, him and Marine Le Pen, congratulations, the European and American Alt-Right do seem to like the type of political leaders who arrests their oposition… Will that change the position of Germany and the UE vis-a-vis Russia, nope.

He is not a German Trump. Not at all. And he already has considerable political power. Wait a minute.. You think he’s a “German Trump” only because he talked to Putin.. You really beleive the myth about Putin don’t you.

Guys … even if I find it very much interesting – albeit highly unlikely – that Germany considers building a stealth fighter, the topic is “Japan & UK” ??? Isn’t it?:highly_amused:

It is… it is… But we kinda started talking about it here. Maybe it deserves a quick thread for itself. Go for it. Maybe someone will find these alleged drawings that are out there

Or in another words, a Bavarian delegation lead by a man who is seen has the “German Trump” wich has a chance of getting elected Chancelor for the next two or three elections of more or less “ZERO”, known for wanting to shut down the borders, talking tough to anyone but Russia (and the USA) and by ending the sanctions to Russia went “Kowtowing” to Moscow, him and Marine Le Pen, congratulations, the European and American Alt-Right do seem to like the type of political leaders who arrests their oposition… Will that change the position of Germany and the UE vis-a-vis Russia, nope.

i can bet on this the stronger Russia takes military action the more German/italian/french investment flows towards it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-firms-place-new-bets-on-russia-1481193003
RUTH BENDER
Dec. 8, 2016 5:30 a.m. ET
BERLIN—German companies are quietly boosting investments in Russia even as Western leaders are warning Moscow about possible new sanctions for its actions in Syria

Just some observations:
The aircraft to replace is the Tornado, that means primary mission is air to ground.

-There is a strong lobby within Luftwaffe circles for a double seater.
-The platform should be able to deliver nuclear weapons (basically B61’s), favouring an American aircraft
-The platform should have an stealthy airframe

As there is no aircraft checking all the boxes the favoured solution is a new development of a stealthy doubleseater. Yep, fat chance given the associated price tag. :stupid:
Remaining options:
F-35: not available as doubleseater, but ticks all the other boxes. The most likely outcome.
Rafale B + Neuron: never heard it mentioned anywhere. Could the Rafale carry the Taurus as it carries the Apache/Scalp, meaning togehter with 3 EFT’s ? Would the French lend the ASMP’s the same way as Americans provide B61’s ?
Eurofigher T4 + some yet to identify UAV: Some noises from industry side, but not even an acknowledgement from Luftwaffe/MOD: very unlikely.

There are only two realistic options to “replace” the Tornado, the F-35A, and the Typhoon.

Joining a yet-to-be-defined UK/Jpn fighter project: pulling a FGFA on the son of Shin Shin ? Please no !

If an actual Japan/British fighter emerges (not much chance) it will be in the mid 30´s, to replace the Phoon and the F-15/F2, in such a theoretical scenario, such an aircraft would be a possibility for the Luftwaffe Phoons replacement.

When was the last time France successfully developed and built any front line aircraft in collaboration with another nation?

Eurocopter Tiger, NH90, A400M, Breguet Atlantique 1/2, Jaguar, Alpha Jet, the Neuron desmonstration program seems to be doing well, and MBDA (while not aircrafts) is a story of sucess. I think that this time around the French are prepared to negotiate.

Yes.

Spiegel Online gave the following details of the trip:

Mr. Seehofer came with a 80 member delegation representing Bavarian society groups, cultural representatives, journalists, industry and agriculture. Those last two branches of the economy have been long demanding at least an easing of sanctions imposed after the annexation of Crimea, and they hope for an end to Russia’s embargo in return.

“Without Moscow, may of the world’s crises can’t be solved,” and praised Putin as “noble” for not involving himself in Germany’s domestic affairs.

Or in another words, a Bavarian delegation lead by a man who is seen has the “German Trump” wich has a chance of getting elected Chancelor for the next two or three elections of more or less “ZERO”, known for wanting to shut down the borders, talking tough to anyone but Russia (and the USA) and by ending the sanctions to Russia went “Kowtowing” to Moscow, him and Marine Le Pen, congratulations, the European and American Alt-Right do seem to like the type of political leaders who arrests their oposition… Will that change the position of Germany and the UE vis-a-vis Russia, nope.

Is Germany Getting Ready to Build Its Very Own Stealth Fighter?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/germany-getting-ready-build-its-very-own-stealth-fighter-19911

Guys … even if I find it very much interesting – albeit highly unlikely – that Germany considers building a stealth fighter, the topic is “Japan & UK” ??? Isn’t it?:highly_amused:

Rafale B + Neuron: never heard it mentioned anywhere. Could the Rafale carry the Taurus as it carries the Apache/Scalp, meaning togehter with 3 EFT’s ? Would the French lend the ASMP’s the same way as Americans provide B61’s ?

If Taurus is too heavy to be carried on outer heavy stations, 2 could be carried on inner stations with 2x 1250 l tanks on outer stations plus the 2000 l center tank.

In your list you forgot the German preference for twin engined aircraft. 😉
Just put EF T3 nuclear hardened guts into a twin seater stealth airframe, how hard can it be?

Given German reluctance to invest in current programmes, I doubt they will fund a new fighter on their own.

The times are changing… Trump in WH, brexit in Europe, Russia in Ukraine…

Given German reluctance to invest in current programmes, I doubt they will fund a new fighter on their own.

Is Germany Getting Ready to Build Its Very Own Stealth Fighter?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/germany-getting-ready-build-its-very-own-stealth-fighter-19911

You used the Duran to state that a Bavarian delegation went to Moscow?!
.

Yes.

Spiegel Online gave the following details of the trip:

Mr. Seehofer came with a 80 member delegation representing Bavarian society groups, cultural representatives, journalists, industry and agriculture. Those last two branches of the economy have been long demanding at least an easing of sanctions imposed after the annexation of Crimea, and they hope for an end to Russia’s embargo in return.

“Without Moscow, may of the world’s crises can’t be solved,” and praised Putin as “noble” for not involving himself in Germany’s domestic affairs.

You used the Duran to state that a Bavarian delegation went to Moscow?!
And strangely you’ve never mentioned that in your text… Thats called b######t…
No, you’ve actually used a Duran text to show that Western Europeans atitudes are changing, “the winds are changing”, and you’ve ilustrated that by using a text that showed that good old Marine Le Pen went to Moscow, and a Bavarian delegation went to Moscow, guess what?
Delegations from German states go to Moscow on a regular base and the chaps from the European extreme right have been “kotowing” to Putin for a decade, since he started to subsidize them, does that mean that Germany is going to get rid of the Russian sanctions? No…

its the Germanic CEOs that running to Russia. i can filll this place with there visits. Merkel is irrelevant.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-18/german-herbal-drug-maker-navigates-putin-eu-to-expand-in-russia
German Herbal-Drug Maker Navigates Putin, EU to Expand in Russia

http://russoft.org/docs/?doc=3633
Russian Railways, Siemens to Create Big Data Engineering Center

i can bet on this that Chinese silk road project tremendously benefit CIS countries so much that countries like Brazil/Mexico and even Australia will become poor to buy Germanic products. plus you have Trump

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-angela-merkel-nato-bill-defence-ignore-usa-germany-spending-a7650636.html#commentsDiv

plus i am excluding Russia military might that can ignite furtherr wars in middleast or ukraine. Russia advance technology moving forward that will make this world very smalll for Germany

Everyone an their aunty thinks the Germans will go down the F35 route in the medium term. It may be that they choose to let the French supply them with a Rafale MLU or something to replace the Typhoon (given that the idea of replacing Rafale is not being discussed).

The notion of Germany joining Britain and Japan (were that to happen), makes not sense in the post Brexit age. Eurofighter was a product of it’s time and whether the French would unilaterally be able to replicate Rafale in the future is just as uncertain.

IMO a British-German-Japanese collaboration is much more likely than a French-German one. When was the last time France successfully developed and built any front line aircraft in collaboration with another nation? The British and Germans have past forms with the exceptional Typhoon and Tornado aircraft (albeit with their fair share of development issues)

However, will Japan really develop an aircraft with Britain at the expense of their partnership with the US? Doubtful.

Oh God. Here we go.. Every single point made by anyone that isn’t towing the western establishment line, automatically turns into a media argument.

Logical Fallacies 101: Ad Hominem (Attack the Source) – by Steve …
https://stevencwatts.newsvine.com/_…/6060912-logical-fallacies-101-ad-hominem-att…

If media outlets that you do not like, say that the sky is blue, the sky is still blue. I did not use the Duran link to try and tell you that the sky was red. I used the Duran link to state that a Bavarian delegation went to Moscow. Because it is a fact.

You used the Duran to state that a Bavarian delegation went to Moscow?!
And strangely you’ve never mentioned that in your text… Thats called b######t…
No, you’ve actually used a Duran text to show that Western Europeans atitudes are changing, “the winds are changing”, and you’ve ilustrated that by using a text that showed that good old Marine Le Pen went to Moscow, and a Bavarian delegation went to Moscow, guess what?
Delegations from German states go to Moscow on a regular base and the chaps from the European extreme right have been “kotowing” to Putin for a decade, since he started to subsidize them, does that mean that Germany is going to get rid of the Russian sanctions? No…