jericho trumpet

I know Paul Allen’s looking all over the world for a stuka siren, or parts, or plans.

*rubs hands together in absolute glee*

Ni idea! I think something is lost in translation.

They couldn’t ‘turn on’ any whistles fitted to the bombs. This makes no sense.

And I cant imagine any element of the siren was made from cardboard.

All very odd.

Not sure about the ‘aerodynamic’ argument.

However, I’ll have another look through what Mahlke said in his notes to Dr Alfred Price to see if anything was lost in translation, but I can’t think he simply meant they couldn’t be turned off simply in the dive – because, by then, their arrival had already been ‘advertised’ anyway. He seems to imply they were removed to avoid advertising their arrival in the run-up to target.

Mahlke’s own words are vague though, this is from his book – “The common practice of a pilot was to begin his dive at 15,000ft at an angle of 60o-90o, turn on the cardboard siren, and dive earthward at up to 350mph.” – what does he mean ‘turn on the cardboard siren’? he’s obviously not talking about the wheel strut sirens, but the cardboard sirens fitted to the bombs. He’s saying they could be turned on from the cockpit!?

Thank you – excellent site!

I know Paul Allen’s looking all over the world for a stuka siren, or parts, or plans. Nothing seems to have survived the war….

Some theories here..
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/how-to-make-a-real-life-size-stuka-siren.16328/

Not sure about the ‘aerodynamic’ argument.

However, I’ll have another look through what Mahlke said in his notes to Dr Alfred Price to see if anything was lost in translation, but I can’t think he simply meant they couldn’t be turned off simply in the dive – because, by then, their arrival had already been ‘advertised’ anyway. He seems to imply they were removed to avoid advertising their arrival in the run-up to target.

right, sirens were fitted both sides…it also wouldn’t make sense aerodynamically to mount them asymmetrically. Maybe the tank for hydraulic fluid was in port wing…one system controlled both sirens simultaneously, with ‘brakes’ fitted to both of the prop shafts. listening carefully to the existing recordings it’s clear that at a certain point the siren ‘starts’, it doesn’t fade in from nothing. perhaps the siren’s brakes failed so much that they stopped repairing them, thus the statement ‘they couldn’t be turned off’??? Thoughts?

This would appear to be from the handbook for the much later ‘Dora’ rather than the 1940 ‘Berta’ (probably the D-5) and there is clear evidence that this equipment came back into use, at least to a limited extent, on that type. According to Oblt Helmut Mahlke (III./StG1) writing about an operation on 10 May 1940: ‘All of our Ju 87s had their sirens removed because we didn’t want to advertise our arrival!’ (He goes on to say that they could not be turned off – although I admit that does sound surprising)

Interestingly, the schematic also shows a link running to the starboard leg with the inscription Larmgerate Rechts – which indicates there was a ‘left’ and ‘right’ noise making device although there was no propeller on the starboard side. Both devices seem to have an independent ‘brake’ (Bremse)

the film ‘STUKA!’ uses the same sounds we’ve all heard, which confirms my belief they all date from one film crew

the sirens actually had a quite robust system to keep props from turning until the plane went into its dive, see attached.[ATTACH=CONFIG]246855[/ATTACH]. i think they operated on the same principal as an air raid siren, only think which still baffles me is that there are no air openings visible in the part labeled ‘noise maker’ – how did air get in /out to produce the sound…

Or buy a parts catalog.

Fortunately, all we have to do is wait for Paul Allen’s Stuka to be completed/flying. ; ) Sure to emerge just as the Il-2 did.

Exactly! Strangely enough whenever I make a comment/ask about it on the FHC Facebook page, I’m met by deafening silence!

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen an exploded view of a Stuka siren but I think it was one of those interesting ‘scrap views’ (engineering-drawing scrap view as opposed to view of scrap!) that you get with the wartime aircraft cutaways by Max Millar or Jimmy Clark? But that begs the question: where did they get to look inside a Stuka siren?

The reason that I’m so sure is because I remember that they worked on exactly the same principal as an old car horn (klaxon) that I once had; two thin metal discs, both with ridges radiating out from the centre, in (sprung) contact, one above the other, with one driven round at high speed by an electric motor (or in the case of the Stuka, a small propeller).

The car klaxon was almost impossible to move by hand but when the electric motor moved it the sound, close up, was almost unbearable!

OK…so it appears St.G/1 may well have still used the sirens over Dunkirk after all. Interesting stuff. But conflicting stories from different units, and appears they may have (at least initially) been improvised pieces of kit. Which may explain why they don’t seem to appear in technical manuals at first glance.

Yes, I’ve been looking through B-1 and B-2 manuals but can find nothing.

It seems the jury may be out, though, on whether or not they were in use at Dunkirk. Some units may have still had them, apparently. But I really am very far from convinced!

Doyen of the subject, Peter Smith, thinks it may have been possible – but I’m getting the sense that he isn’t convinced 100% either.

Here’s a link to Ju-87 pilot notes etc.
I just spent some time going through them (In German), & I can find nothing about the siren ?
LINK – http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/germany/junkers/ju87stuka.html

But I’ve read the sirens had clutches or brakes, which could be switched off by the pilot. I read one account by a stuka pilot that his brake wouldn’t engage and he had to fly all the way back to base with the thing screaming. I’m sure you’re more of an expert on this subject than I but there is a lot of contradictory information – all of it well documented – out there. The fog of war?

Maybe not the ‘fog of war’ exactly…..you just need an explanation that fits all the contradictions.

The ‘classic’ Stuka siren was the one (the ones) fitted to the undercarriage struts and driven by a small propeller. Purely automatic in operation (no electric wiring or hydraulics) and (apparently) ‘impossible’ to switch off. But surely nobody is going to want the damn things howling all the way to the target and back so I’m sure some practical solution was come up with (and I may have even read something about this in the past but cannot remember).

It would be fairly easy to have the propellers turning all the time but to have some form of clutch (as you suggest) that engaged the siren only under certain conditions, such as during the actual dive of the dive-bombing; the simplest and most reliable way of achieving this would be a ‘centrifugal’ clutch that engaged the siren when the speed of the small propeller went above a certain RPM as the aircraft speed increased. Fairly reliable, but not impossible for it to get stuck, if damaged in combat or if out of adjustment.

Yes, and I hear you and your colleague are in agreement on this (I haven’t spoken to him yet myself)…. Have any stuka pilots ever referenced the sound we’ve all heard and known as the ‘stuka siren’ (which has become so famous as the generic plane crash sound / anvil falling on wiley coyote’s head sound in the american cartoon, etc..) in their interviews or memoirs that you know of?

Interview with pilot Heinz-Georg Migeod. He says they were functional all of the time and they gave away their attacks. He also says that they took them off and switched to whistles on the bombs, which were just as effective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-CQ5Sko3mk

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

Thanks!