Kanimbla's New Guns

The S. African LHD programme will depend on the new administrations attitude. I don’t know what Zuma thinks about it, but I hope, for S. Africa & some other African countries, he’s in favour – and they buy two of whatever, so they don’t end up with none when one’s in dock. Given financial constraints, two would favour a smaller design. I don’t know what’s preferred, but AFAIK the MRD150 is the cheapest of those seriously considered.

But enough digression from me. Bad habit of mine. My apologies.

Swerve and Steve: Guys you are saying exactly what I am saying.

Steve: I understand all to well the constraints placed on the RAN (personal experience), still, the government are looking at 10x subs to replace the operational ineffectiveness that six provide the current fleet- and don’t tell me it’s because of the problems of the Collins class- we’ve had these problems well before then Back when I was on O-Boats as well. The new boats that are being sought are to have a smaller crew (max of 42), but such a high level of automation that the likes have never been seen in the silent service. What i would like to see is a two tier service with 6 SSK’s and 4 SSG’s in a similar fashion to what the RSN is getting with their new subs- Smaller ones used in coastal patrols, larger ones extending out.

Dodger: Ahh yes the African troop lift idea- last I heard everyone but South Africa and Kenya had pulled out saying that it was going to cost too much and that the money could be better spent on other priorities. Still the MRD 150 does seem to be the favoured design over there and not the Juan Carlos design

HMAS Tobruk differed in many way to the RN Round Table series. For one we had a huge 70 tonne Derrick on our vessel that out did the RN models Crane systems which could only lift up to 40 tonnes. We also had a major hospital unit on board our ship which included Dental and x-ray facilities and a 50 bed recovery ward (The RN vessels had minimal hospital facilities and instead of a recovery ward they used this space for extra troops).

The RN never directly operated Sir boats, only the RFA and BISN. Hence I can ask how many en-suite cabins does Tobruk have for her ship’s company of 😮 150? Naval accommodation standards explain where the apparent extra space on Tobruk comes from.

The South African Navy are currently shopping around for 1 or 2 LHDs. (A single big one or a pair of smaller ones)
More than one commentator has suggested that a version of the Spanish model being built for Australia would do very nicely.

Yes. But it isn’t funded yet, & even if it goes ahead, is far from “almost guaranteed” for the BPE design. There are other designs in the competition, & there are good reasons why the South Africans may prefer a smaller design, in order to be able to able to afford two ships. And that is the only requirement the BPE is currently competing for, AFAIK, so even if Navantia get the sale, it won’t add up to 5-6 ships.

5-6 sounds more like the marketing departments projection of maximum feasible sales, which is a very long way from “almost guaranteed”.

The South African Navy are currently shopping around for 1 or 2 LHDs. (A single big one or a pair of smaller ones)
More than one commentator has suggested that a version of the Spanish model being built for Australia would do very nicely.

Here ASC is based and some interesting stuff is coming out.in response to a query of a friends welding business why only ‘x’ amount of apprentices being recruited, the reply was with only 3 AWD’s that’s all that’s needed….. ASC almost guarenteed work on minimum 5 AWD hull boats maximum 7, and 5-6 LHD type hulls! mate was stunned! apparently there are several reasons for this……. if canberra class bring the number of enlistments up, production on AWD will ramp up and include a few with enhanced ASW ability…. and three canberra class LHD’s, 2tanker/stores ships to supply enlarged fleet, 1 as training ship/hospital ship/container ship, and the slightest possibility of 1 as a submarine tender, although this may be part of the last ships role. also expecting to build a new class of 8 subs after that to replace collins- almost guarenteed work for 25 years apparently! :D:D

And its the worst kept secret about a fixed wing capability for RAN isnt it;)

Hulls for the LHD’s are being constructed in spain, with fitting out, and the construction of the superstructure being carried out here in Australia.

It is however possible, that a derivative of the AWD with Aegis removed could be procured as the ANZAC replacement.

At the moment, the replacement for the second LPA is listed on government sites as a “sea lift ship”. An enlarged fleet is not currently possible due to personnel constraints, and more then 6 subs being built to replace the collins class (~2025) is unlikely unless the mining boom ends before then.

Success is not due to be replaced until 2015, with Sirius replaced in the early 2020’s.

I just dont see ASC senior management as having a laugh at my mates business expense(owned by him and his father)-they have subsequently hired 7 more guys!

Maybe its for foreign sales but they guarenteed work for them in contract form! and i meet this bloke through another ADGie…… so I doubt hes making it up.

Then perhaps you’ve misunderstood. Or maybe it’s just marketing hype. Over-confidence to the point of dishonesty isn’t exactly unknown in business – look at most banks. As for 7 more people – well, that’s hardly the workforce for building several major ships.

Those numbers can’t be guaranteed foreign sales, since the total number of prospects (not sales) for the Juan Carlos design is currently two. And that’s for a requirement which isn’t yet funded & may never be. Much the same with the AWDs. Currently, I can’t think of a possible, yet alone likely, export sale on the horizon, except Greece, where it seems to be a long way down the list, & in any case, the Greeks are likely to postpone a decision due to lack of money. And I can’t see Australia buying all that lot.

150 compliment 😮

What did they do with the 100 personnel they got rid of? Loosing that many from a key design is kind of worrying- really! 🙁

I bet whoever told him that had a good laugh with his mates in the pub later, about winding up your mate.

I’ve heard such tales many times. Did you know that at one time there were orders for 200 Concordes just about to be signed, by airlines all over the world? I had that from someone building the thing. Etc., etc. Sometimes, this nonsense is internal gossip that’s actually believed, sometimes it’s just a wind-up. But if you’re willing to bet on that, I have some very nice bridges for sale. Modest down payment (cash only, I’m afraid) & easy payment terms.

I just dont see ASC senior management as having a laugh at my mates business expense(owned by him and his father)-they have subsequently hired 7 more guys!

Maybe its for foreign sales but they guarenteed work for them in contract form! and i meet this bloke through another ADGie…… so I doubt hes making it up.

Rumor or not, if it happens the RAN will finally live up to its full regional potential

Also mentioned that during conversation, I see our retention problem every week, and he did point out alot of automation would be going into AWD type boats then originally plannes…. target crew size 150!

F-111: Oh yeah one final point I forgot to mention, also comes from my time in the service- we have a retention problem and a recruitment problem. If we do go for all those vessels you mentioned, we’d have no crew for all of them (another reason why the forces are looking at high degrees of Automation!

…ASC almost guarenteed work on minimum 5 AWD hull boats maximum 7, and 5-6 LHD type hulls! mate was stunned! …

I bet whoever told him that had a good laugh with his mates in the pub later, about winding up your mate.

I’ve heard such tales many times. Did you know that at one time there were orders for 200 Concordes just about to be signed, by airlines all over the world? I had that from someone building the thing. Etc., etc. Sometimes, this nonsense is internal gossip that’s actually believed, sometimes it’s just a wind-up. But if you’re willing to bet on that, I have some very nice bridges for sale. Modest down payment (cash only, I’m afraid) & easy payment terms.

I don’t know the details of ASCs contract, but maybe they get a share of any future Navantia sales of the AWD & LHD. In that case, these could be worldwide sales targets (probably never to be met), on which ASC will get a bit of subcontract work, if the sales are made. The chance of that lot being RAN orders, or all to be built in Australia, is approximately zero.

That is interesting mate but speaking as someone who served in the RAN i can say that ASC have over compensated highly there. The only thinking I can see, is that ASC are looking at putting in a bid for building the vessels for over seas use as well as ours (there is no secret that the Australian government has tried to sell ASC’s capabilities for building highly complex vessels in the past- refer to Australia trying to sell Collins class to Taiwan).

Perhaps ASC are ramping up again to put in bits for vessels for other naval services. As for our new subs, last I heard we were looking for 10 not 8. This will give our navy a better coverage in our global sphere of influence. Then there is all the other stuff mentioned, interesting.

As for the Aprentices, well they have to leave room for the Navy to send some of theirs in!

Oh and don’t dismiss any of the other navies amphibious capabilities in our region.

Indonesia has four LPD’s.

Not quite four yet. Two Makasar-class commissioned, a third launched two months ago, & a fourth building, plus the larger Dr Soeharso (formerly Tanjung Dalpele), which has been re-outfitted as a hospital ship – though one with a dock, vehicle deck, etc.

http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/KRI_Tanjung_Dalpele
I don’t speak Bahasa Indonesia, but one can still extract some information from it.

So . . . right now 3 LPDs, one of which has a primary hospital ship role, with two more on the way.

Here ASC is based and some interesting stuff is coming out.in response to a query of a friends welding business why only ‘x’ amount of apprentices being recruited, the reply was with only 3 AWD’s that’s all that’s needed….. ASC almost guarenteed work on minimum 5 AWD hull boats maximum 7, and 5-6 LHD type hulls! mate was stunned! apparently there are several reasons for this……. if canberra class bring the number of enlistments up, production on AWD will ramp up and include a few with enhanced ASW ability…. and three canberra class LHD’s, 2tanker/stores ships to supply enlarged fleet, 1 as training ship/hospital ship/container ship, and the slightest possibility of 1 as a submarine tender, although this may be part of the last ships role. also expecting to build a new class of 8 subs after that to replace collins- almost guarenteed work for 25 years apparently! :D:D

And its the worst kept secret about a fixed wing capability for RAN isnt it;)

F-111: Mate we are not going to get a third LHD. We will however get the air componant, I have been hearing this for some time and have been trying to let everyone know this but few people believe it (understandably).

The plan has been to retire the LPA’s and the LSH when the LHD’s come on line, and then replace HMAS Success with a common design vessel based on the superstructure of the LHD’s.

Oh and don’t dismiss any of the other navies amphibious capabilities in our region.

Indonesia has four LPD’s.

New Zealand has Canterbury which is actually proving to be very successful.

And Singapore has their very capable Endurance class vessels.

there is one solution to the RAN’s manpower problems…… the third canberra. not only ccan we take the air wing off and still use it for disaster relief, but a REAL flagship provides incentive to join….. nothin like serving on a carrier flagship-enlistment numbers havent been the same since Melbourne was sold.

Hopefully after the money spent on Manoora and Kanimbla we keep them even after the two Canberra class arrive (lets hope for 3-a ‘Australia’ with fixed wing element)……. apart from USN i cant think of a regional power with that good an amphibious capability!

Yeah, when the LHDs arrive you may overtake Indonesia again. They only have 3 LPDs in service, one launched, & a fifth building – so far. Total tonnage ca 60000 tons, i.e. not that much more than the two Canberras, & they’re inferior ships. A fraction of the cost, though, thanks to those cheap & efficient Koreans.

BTW, AFAIK there are no plans to keep Kanimbla & Manoora in service after the LHDs are delivered. Won’t be any crews for ’em, for a start, & they’ll be over 40 years old then. Ships don’t last forever. The money has been to keep them effective until replaced.

Hopefully after the money spent on Manoora and Kanimbla we keep them even after the two Canberra class arrive (lets hope for 3-a ‘Australia’ with fixed wing element)……. apart from USN i cant think of a regional power with that good an amphibious capability!

HMAS Tobruk differed in many way to the RN Round Table series. …

I am intregued though, you guys refer to the Round Table’s as LSL’s, our Tobruk is actually an LSH Landing Ship Heavy.

Yes, a modified Round Table, as was the second Sir Galahad – though with different modifications. The Round Tables didn’t need much in the way of hospital facilities because the RN had other ships to provide that capability, for example.

Terminology is flexible. LSL = Landing Ship Logistic. Heavy? AFAIK, the Round Tables were the smallest landing ships in the RN/RFA (there were smaller landing craft), so they couldn’t really be called heavy.

HMAS Tobruk differed in many way to the RN Round Table series. For one we had a huge 70 tonne Derrick on our vessel that out did the RN models Crane systems which could only lift up to 40 tonnes. We also had a major hospital unit on board our ship which included Dental and x-ray facilities and a 50 bed recovery ward (The RN vessels had minimal hospital facilities and instead of a recovery ward they used this space for extra troops). Tobruk even has one level removed off the top where the flight deck is… observe:

RFA Sir Lancelot

HMAS Tobruk, note the height of the funnel compared to the pic of Lancelot and also the derrick

Yes it was just after the Falklands that the RN wanted our ship, sadly for them we decided to keep it, We could have done a deal where we got the carrier and they got Tobruk, oh well that’s politics for you.

I am intregued though, you guys refer to the Round Table’s as LSL’s, our Tobruk is actually an LSH Landing Ship Heavy.