http://www.aaib.gov.uk for those interested.
I was at Biggin Hill but only witnessed the first loss of control.
As an enthusiast and spectator I am quite shocked that a professional pilot can lose control twice (can lose control at all!). It seems to suggest that these two losses of control may have been intentional, spin was intentional?
Loss of control = aircraft out of control = aircraft in crowd
I hope something is being done to prevent this happening again.
Opinions….
By: macky42 - 15th July 2002 at 18:17
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin
May I question the use of the word ‘hero’ to describe our display pilots of today. I’ve always accepted the definition of a hero as someone who takes courageous action in the face of fear. I don’t think that’s appropriate for a display pilot; exceptionally skilled and gifted, yes, heroic no. I’m sure they would not see themselves as heroes.
As for memorials, I don’t personally need a concrete memorial, I remember them. Fortunately I have only witnessed one accident (Hoof Proudfoot in the P38), but I remember his displays, especially his directing of landing aircraft at Duxford from the end of the runway – I shall never forget those things.
Finally, and without referring especially to either the P38 or P63 accidents, don’t forget that display pilots, however skilled or experienced, can make errors of judgement just like the rest of us, although sadly with severe consequences sometimes. I think that the days of ‘pilot error’ as a default cause for accidents have passed, but sometimes they just get it wrong, but it does not diminish my respect for them.
By: PhantomII - 14th July 2002 at 23:36
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin
Munnst, I’m very offended at your post and you had better explain yourself. How can you insinuate that this gentleman intentionally caused a crash. You have something loose in your head??
It’s very saddening to see someone killed, especially when he’s trying to perform for people such as YOURSELF and other enthusiasts. Not only that, but a relatively rare piece of aviation history is now gone forever. What a shame….
Explain yourself you heartless….
By: Vulcanboy - 14th July 2002 at 22:40
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin
I was at Biggin on BOTH of the occasions you have mensioned…..THe douglas invader crash in the 1980’s and last years sad loss,
In my opinion i think you all have missed something out very inportant……..
Official report or not…….accident or pilot error……
one thing SHOULD always be remembered and it is…
We celebrate the flying of the perfesional pilots during the war and the victorys they were brave enough to perform..and quite rightly so…
The pilots that fly the aircraft today are also Heros just like the pilots of yesteryear……They may not have a Jerry on their tail high above the Kent contryside, but they are none the less skillful and should be remembered the same.
They fly OLD machines for our entertainment and i feel we should remember them in their glory when the accidents accour
Why not have memorials to the pilots killed in “AIRSHOW” action?
i have not seen a memorial for the pilots who were killed at Biggin Hill when i was a kid in the 80’s
By: David J Burke - 8th April 2002 at 18:57
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
The report which I have just viewed is open to interpretation. Certainly the ground was a factor at the point where it nosed over but the other factors of the landing are as important.
Regards the roll over protection if you read the report in depth
the fuselage actually structurally failed aft of the cockpit which allowed the canopy to be broken. It’s an incredibly sad fact I feel that life was extinguished very quickly during the accident with the aircraft sinking into the ground as such not being a factor.
It’s always going to be speculation but I remember an incident a few years ago involving a warbird which had a roll frame which turned over – the pilot survived for a considerable while before he ran out of oxygen. I am all in favour of retaining any feature that has been
designed into the aircraft as a means of pilot protection.
By: Moggy C - 8th April 2002 at 08:49
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
David, you wrote..
“I have seen photographs taken after the crash at Sywell and quag doesn’t mean anything.”
Agreed, but the point I was making was nothing to do with the cause of the accident which seems to be quite firmly placed on the drainage channels cut beneath the surface of the runway. The debate was on survivability in the accident.
The discussion (And I hold no opinion in either directions) was based on the removal of the roll-over protection on the Sea Fury in order to make space for a jump seat. It has been argued that had this not been done Paul Morgan would be with us today. The other pint is that the ground was so soft that had the roll-over protection been in place it would merely have sunk into the ground with no beneficial result.
Now had it been a hard runway, then any roll-over protection woukld have had more chance to work.
However, sadly, this is all ‘might-have-been’. Mr Morgan is still very dead, and he almost certainly wouldn’t have been if the hard runway had been in place. Thank heavens the NIMBYs haven’t won this one.
Moggy
By: David J Burke - 5th April 2002 at 21:41
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
Munnst – I fairness to both accident’s the point I made was that humans make mistakes . You cannot I feel though be analytical regarding one incident and then state that another incident was due to the runway and bad luck. What exactly is bad luck?
It’s worth noting that the pilot is in command of the machine not the other way around. If it ever gets to the stage where
there is an element of doubt it’s best for the pilot to leave it in the hanger and come back another day.
By: David J Burke - 5th April 2002 at 21:33
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
Moggy – the crash in the U.S was a fatal incident. The lack of seat armour meant that the was little protection for the pilot in a similar way to the Sywell Sea Fury.
By: David J Burke - 5th April 2002 at 21:31
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
I have seen photographs taken after the crash at Sywell and quag doesn’t mean anything. The surface although wet was usable – look more closely at where the aircraft first touched down for reasons for it not stopping.
By: Ashley - 5th April 2002 at 15:55
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
On Friday 1st June last year…I watched the Kingcobra taxiing out at Duxford…then taking to the skies along with the Tigercat and Skyraider…the trio passed over the airfield and set course for Biggin Hill…
On Sunday 3rd, I watched many Duxford residents coming home…all but one…
Many a time I had stood and admired the Cobra…and patted her nose gently and lovingly…I still cannot believe that one of “my” aircraft failed to return…
By: munnst - 5th April 2002 at 15:07
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
well whatever the reason for crashes I hope we have a safe display year.
By: Moggy C - 5th April 2002 at 12:29
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
>Can anyone see the comparison between the Sewell acident and
>the Cobra.
>
I can’t.
Was there supposed to be a connection?
Moggy
By: munnst - 5th April 2002 at 11:07
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
Can anyone see the comparison between the Sewell acident and the Cobra.
The Sea Fury crash was a combination of runway and bad luck. This sort of accident I can understand. A one off accident, not one particular event can be blamed just bad luck.
Can anyone see the comparision I was trying to make between this sort of accident and the Kingcobra.
By: Moggy C - 5th April 2002 at 10:16
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-04-02 AT 10:16 AM (GMT)]> I read a post a couple of days ago a post relating
>to the accident at Sywell which infered that it might not
>have happened if they had a hard runway there. The fact that
>a very similar incident had happened in Florida on a hard
>runway was obviously lost in the clamour for something or
>someone to blame.
Yes but there is another factor at work here, as I recall the cockpit had sunk quite deeply into the quag at Sywell. It is just possible that had it been a hard runway the pilot “might” have survived.
We’ll never know.
Moggy
By: David J Burke - 4th April 2002 at 22:16
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
The debate is of course useful but the other side of the coin is that the findings really only have a direct impact on people who hold a DA
in the U.K and obviously whatever is requied abroad for airdisplay participation.
I read a post a couple of days ago a post relating to the accident at Sywell which infered that it might not have happened if they had a hard runway there. The fact that a very similar incident had happened in Florida on a hard runway was obviously lost in the clamour for something or someone to blame.
I think in this case and indeed in the example of the P-38 at Duxford it’s best to examine the evidence your self of which the is plenty and make an informed opinion. By all means share that opinion but in this situation I feel that the vast majority of people will be quite happy to accept the findings of the AAIB and just remember a fine pilot and machine.
By: munnst - 4th April 2002 at 22:05
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
Many thanks for the responses to my initial question.
In response to the person who said that I was suggesting the aircraft was deliberately made to spin…
“It is difficult to understand why the pilot, who was experienced and practised in the display environment, continued with his display after experiencing a departure from controlled flight during one of the manoeuvres. If there was a problem with the performance or handling of the aircraft then it seems unlikely that he would have continued the display without reviewing the problem”
“The flight control inputs at the top of the final manoeuvre, in particular the rudder, were not consistent with a display manoeuvre or a recovery action. In fact, they were similar to the control positions used to effect deliberate entry into a spin and the aircraft entered an incipient spin.”
That is from the AAIB report. Are they not suggesting that? Perhaps I’m reading too much into the report??
I would also like to broaden my original question by asking;
“Is it wrong to debate topics such as this?”
Don’t wish to be offensive, just curious.
By: David J Burke - 4th April 2002 at 20:12
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
Munnst- Your best course of action is to examine the flight characteristic’s of types like the Kingcobra and the Lockheed Lightning. These machines do have large reserves of engine power that can be used to enter and exit manouvers but it’s also a fact of life that the ground doesn’t move up ! Simply the is an element of risk in any manouver and using display criteria height’s for exits from manouvers doesn’t allow much margin for error.
Regards your comment’s on why a professional pilot should loose control twice – that’s very much a case of why do humans make error’s which are obvious to everyone else but not the person involved. During my time in the R.A.F the was a case where a station commander flew a perfectly serviceable aircraft into the ground-another where an aircraft was abandoned over hostile territory and the pilot had to be rescued by CAS because he made the wrong switch selection .
Unfortunately the Kingcobra didn’t have any means of cockpit data recording otherwise we would have a better idea of what went on in the final moments.
It’s worth noting also that although we havn’t had any serious display crowd injuries in the last 40 years – the fact that we have
lost a number of fine pilot’s in that time does tend to indicate that the are still measures that can be taken in terms of aircrew currency
and training. The aerobatic loops and barrel rolls do have an element of risk and one of my memories will always be the A-26 going in at Biggin Hill inverted – If I didn’t see another low level loop
at a display it wouldn’t bother me one bit .
By: tonydyer - 4th April 2002 at 19:34
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
I agree Damien. The whole event was tragically sad, he would have never intended for it to go this way.
Regarding the comment about loss of control = in crowd….whoa no way. We have excellent guidelines that prevent that.
The AAIB does not exist to apportion blame, for me, every accident has lessons that can be learned. They present the facts and we all learn from them, that is how it works.
>Your suggestion that Guy intentionally lost control is
>pretty odious. Dead men cannot defend themselves.
>
>As for preventing it happening again – as the pilot is dead
>and the aircraft is destroyed, what more do you want? The
>grounding of every aircraft on the planet?
By: munnst - 4th April 2002 at 16:27
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
From my understanding he got into difficulties, recovered, flew a few passes, then decided to try the failed manouver AGAIN.
The display organisers who witnessed the first failed manouver tried five times to contact ATC to get the pilot to abandon his display but due to a break in communication this didn’t happen.
If you read the report the control surface deflections were in a position that would induce a spin (intentional?) they were not in the position normally associated with a controlled manouver??
Perhaps I read the report wrong (will re-read it).
By: treadigraph - 4th April 2002 at 16:27
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
The final sentence of the second to last paragraph of the AAIB report reads:
“From consideration of the evidence and the experience of the pilot, it seems likely that an unknown factor affected the pilot’s physical and/or mental performance during the display.”
I read that as at least a degree of doubt on the simple “pilot error” conclusion.
Julian
By: Moggy C - 4th April 2002 at 15:52
RE: Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill last year
Forgive me, I wasn’t there.
But as I read the AAIB there was a problem entering the original manouvere too slow (for whatever reason) and from there on in he never had enough energy to complete the rest of the sequence as planned.
He thus enters the final manouvere far too slow and too low, falls out of the top of it and doesn’t have the room for a conventional recovery?
Moggy
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April 4, 2002 at 1:06 pm