Kosovo

RE: Kosovo

We are doing something we shouldn´t do. First putting lots of things in the same basket (ETA; IRA; ALBANIAN NATIONALISTS). Different conflicts, different solutions. Nationalism is an illness, whereever it comes from; Serbian vs Kosovarian….when both radical sides want to impose their views, then it comes the conflict. Of course the Serbian regime had a criminal bevahiour, but from the Albanian fighters or whatever you want to call them, came a high degree of violence and intolerance against Serbians. Always split guilt. Of course the ruling power has more capacity to create violence, but legimatecy is lost when violence is used. About the use of force in Kosovo. I don´t know if it was worthy. Too hard to decide if the loss of live was necessary to keep law and order. You are lucky to have such a clear stance.

RE: Kosovo

As a proud Albanian, I feel very offended by the language used in this forum against my people. Some of you have even changed the history blaming the Kosovo Albanians for the start of the war. So what was shown in international televisions was a lie after your theories? Did you forget all those dead people that didn’t even have a grave to rest on or did you forget all those burned houses.

And as usual, the Albanians whereever they are, they are terrorists and get blamed for everything. Imagine yourself being denied the right to learn your own language or even to speak it. Image yourselves being beaten because you are raising the Albanian flag and not the Serbian one. What would you do? Would you stay and watch how your culture is wiped out or are you going to fight. Well…as Albanians we choose the second option and I rather die then speak the Serbian language. I do not think that to fight for the right to speak and learn your own language is terrorism. Terrorism is when you start to kill inocent civilians who have nothing to do with this.

Attachments:

RE: Kosovo

Seahawk,

“The only train incident I know of, was the one with the
released targeting video, which shows that a bridge was
targeted, when suddenly a train appears on the bridge a
second before impact. That is a tragedy for the involved
people, but not a deliberate attack. At least not of the
pilot flying the plane.” – Actually, NATO later admitted that the video had been speeded up by a factor of three. Upon hearing this, Newsnight (here in the UK) played the original video at 1/3 of the speed and it was plainly obvious that the train was travelling slowly enough for the pilot to see it in time to avoid bombing it. The fact that he went round and bombed it again I think proves that it was a war crime in the true sense of the phrase. Interestingly, the admission came just after the publishing of the Human Rights Watch report which cleared NATO of any war crimes.

“The Chinese embassy is something completely different. I
think that it was deliberately targeted, but the Chinese
tried something that could have influenced the war. So it
something what I would call grey zone.” – A nation’s embassy in another country is legally and officially it’s own territory. Therefore, China was bombed without warning nor a decleration of war. Not only that but it is largely staffed by civilians and as such it was illegal to attack it according laws set out by the Geneva Convention (which states that it is a war crime to attack any object containing civilians even if military personel are also present).

“I never thought about the legal points to the war. The moral
viewpoint is very difficult for me to judge, as living in a
EU country I was filled up with TV stories of dead albanians
etc. I think I´m much too far away to make any moral
judgement on any side of the war.” – I’m glad you recognise the dangers of basing your opinion on the media and on NATO and government statements (which can be classed as propaganda).

“Nevertheless I think the war was wrong from a political
viewpoint. As far as I understand going to war to bring
peace to a region means having a plan for after the war. But
what we have now, is a Kosovo which can´t be returned to the
serbian/montenegro state, but also can´t be given to Albania
or be independent. This peace of land is a base for
criminals (and terrorists) that operate in nearly all
western countries. They sparked the trouble in Macedonia and
I´m sure they will try to spread more trouble in the future.
(That is when NATO withdraws) If Western politicians do not
see that only strong neighbours (read Macedonia and
Serbia/Montenegro) will be the way to stopp the aggession.
Otherwise we might see a fundamentalistic muslem country in
Europe in 10 years.” – I agree, although it appears that you’re viewing the war as one started with peace in mind. I don’t think that was the case. If you followed the Rambouillet Conference closely you will understand what I mean.

“I have very different opinions on Slovenia and partly
Croatia as well. There I would say a great part of the
aggression lay with the serbian troops / paras. But I won´t
make any judgement on who did wrong and what, as I´m too far
away from the actual happenings.” – I think that (if you’re interested) you should study the events leading up to the conflict more. I beleive that this will show that both sides were to blame for the war and neither side was essentially an “agressor”.

“I hope you understand my point of view.” – I think I do and I am glad that you chose to express it.

ever heard of Parmenion???

>>>We (orthodox Macedonians) <<<…?

Being myself of Macedonian ancestry , I find it insulting for someone to steal my people’s History , for lack of its own past . The tragic developments in FYROM over the last years should show even to the most extreme hardliner that you cannot found a state on lies . It crumbles in the slightest crosswind… Try the truth otoh and you’ll be surprised of the results…

www.hri.org/docs/macque/

www.hri.org/docs/macque/

www.real.macedonia.gr/

“It is not the bravest men that fight best, but those who are strongest” (ARISTOTLE)

ÌÁ×ÉÌÙÔÁÔÏÉ ÏÉ ÉÓ×ÕÏÍÔÅÓ (ÁñéóôïôÝëçò)

http://members.home.nl/orbats/mil/haf/gfx/337.gif

RE: Kosovo

Hawk i never said we didnt do anything wrong. We certanly did and i saw it with my ayes.. but i also saw with my ayes what you did and what moslims did.. so for a west to pick one side and place all the blame on it was a political motivated crime.

As for you not having unifomrs and no weapons.. then 300+ JNA soldiers died from hart attacks.. and 15 tanks icl M84 self distructed arround Vukovar.Gimme a break. You were arming yourselfe since 70s ….the fighters in vukovar had everything from zoljas to heavy machinegunns.. Its offcourse obvious that JNA was much more numerous and more equiped.. but then again so was the HR army during opperation oluja but that somehow didnt seam to bother you.

As far as for this being last from you on the subject.. i have no problem with that.. after all we were discussing the NATO 99 agression which had nothing to do with croatia.. when you brougth the whole issue up. Belive me when i say that i do not ejoy arguing with you or that i wish to insult you or your people on purpose.. i simply cannont resist not to respond to some nonsence (from my point of view) you said. Its obvious that due to our positions and past experiences we do not se aye to aye one quite few issues… so chances of us agreeing on such issues are slim as you said your sefe. So ill try to restrain my selfe from going into such topics again if you do the same.

I look forward to more constructive disscusions on Aviation based topics with you especialy involving developments in Croatian Airforce.

Pozdrav

RE: Kosovo

“1.What hospitals? only one i Know of is in Vukovar when 500+ soldiers hid there.. it was hit once with tank shell as warning, after which they did surrender. Nato damaged VMA in Bg, Hit In the car part of hospital in Nis doing shrapmil damage to building and old folks home was leveled on zlatibor cause they thought it was army object.”

Well obviously you haven’t been there like me. I’m from Osijek and I have been in Osijek during entire war and I witness artillery strike on civilian when no military things was nowhere around.

“4. City of osjek had 30-40 % of serb population.. now there is about 2%… a “ethinc cleansing wouldnt you say””

I say there was more like 15% and now is about 8%.

“1.No but it is reson for much hate that resulted in 91, because prior that (NDH) we didnt have many incidents (appart from you attacking us in austrohungarian uniforms)between our people, actualy what I maen we didnt do anything to cause you to hate us so much, so you slaughted us for religiuos/national reason only… that remained edgded into serbian minds and resulted in much hate we saw… not that i justify Incidents like srebrenica.”

We all see on TV (TV Beograd when Vukovar fall)20-30 men in Cetniks uniforms singing “Slobo send us salad, we have meat we have slaughter Croats”. This song make me love you. We hardly have any uniforms in ’91 so anything green was uniform.

And this is last of me,beacuse we obviously won’t agree about anything.

RE: Kosovo

“2. Well Vukovar was no “massacre”.. you said it your selfe,,if you have soldier fortyfing houses… then they are legit targets to level them.”

Yes it’s MASSACRE if they kill wounded from hospital.

RE: Kosovo

Nice to see that both of you are reasonable on that point. As I said I do not doubt that there was damage to civilian properties and to civilians during the war.
The only train incident I know of, was the one with the released targeting video, which shows that a bridge was targeted, when suddenly a train appears on the bridge a second before impact. That is a tragedy for the involved people, but not a deliberate attack. At least not of the pilot flying the plane.

The Chinese embassy is something completely different. I think that it was deliberately targeted, but the Chinese tried something that could have influenced the war. So it something what I would call grey zone.

I never thought about the legal points to the war. The moral viewpoint is very difficult for me to judge, as living in a EU country I was filled up with TV stories of dead albanians etc. I think I´m much too far away to make any moral judgement on any side of the war.
Nevertheless I think the war was wrong from a political viewpoint. As far as I understand going to war to bring peace to a region means having a plan for after the war. But what we have now, is a Kosovo which can´t be returned to the serbian/montenegro state, but also can´t be given to Albania or be independent. This peace of land is a base for criminals (and terrorists) that operate in nearly all western countries. They sparked the trouble in Macedonia and I´m sure they will try to spread more trouble in the future. (That is when NATO withdraws) If Western politicians do not see that only strong neighbours (read Macedonia and Serbia/Montenegro) will be the way to stopp the aggession. Otherwise we might see a fundamentalistic muslem country in Europe in 10 years.
With that in mind I say the war was wrong.

I have very different opinions on Slovenia and partly Croatia as well. There I would say a great part of the aggression lay with the serbian troops / paras. But I won´t make any judgement on who did wrong and what, as I´m too far away from the actual happenings.

I hope you understand my point of view.

regards

seahawk

RE: Kosovo

Seahawk,

No, you’re right, I don’t beleive that hospitals, old people’s homes etc were hit deliberatly. However, I am almost certain that a train was bombed while crossing a bridge because it was thought to be carrying troops. Likewise, in Kosovo, a coach full of civillians was bombed because it was thoght to be carrying troops (though god knows why the ambulance that was first to arrive on the scene was bombed). I know that a Chinese embassy was hit, almost certainly on purpose (old maps? The map the CIA claimed to have used shows no building on that site). I know for a fact that producers, reporters, make-up ladies and camera crews were killed on purpose – a war crime surely?

Besides, if you beleive, as I do, that the entire campaign was illegal morally and according to international law, then any deaths that result from it are war crimes. I blame NATO for the death of every single soldier (largely conscripts or professionals fighting for their country against terrorism) and every civillian. I will never forgive them the deaths of the 100+ children who died or for the thousands who were traumatised by the 78 day experience.

RE: Kosovo

Seahawk I dont think hospitals were deliberatly hit.. and i belive neither does ink.. but the fact remain the ones i mentioned above(that i know of) did suffer dammage …even if they were not targeted, for a power that claimed they could send bombs down the chimneys in Bagdad 10 years earlier… it simply shamefull and embaresing.

RE: Kosovo

>There were more than just hospitals damaged, it was old
>people’s homes, maternity clinics etc. There’s no point in
>arguing about that though, they were all “mistakes” }>.
>

Believing that hospitals or such buildings were deliberately attacked is a unrealistic. You do not really believe this – do you ?
Or do you really believe that NATO wanted to kills the serbian people ??
I do agree that these attacks were unjustified and a failure, as the curretn situation is much worse, but saying NATO would have attacked civilian targets deliberately is a bit over the line.

Just think of what would happen if that would be discovered by the press, most governments could take their hat.

Some damage to civilian buildings in unavoidable in a war, but saying that targets like hospitals were purposefully is too much. That is nothing more then Serbian national propaganda.

RE: Kosovo

“And After the the 1941-45 NDH Nazi Eperience where you slaughtered
And this is yours excuse for massacre and attacking civillian in Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Vinkovci, Osijek… and later in BiH Sarajevo, Gorazde, Srebrenica….”

1.No but it is reson for much hate that resulted in 91, because prior that (NDH) we didnt have many incidents (appart from you attacking us in austrohungarian uniforms)between our people, actualy what I maen we didnt do anything to cause you to hate us so much, so you slaughted us for religiuos/national reason only… that remained edgded into serbian minds and resulted in much hate we saw… not that i justify Incidents like srebrenica.

2. Well Vukovar was no “massacre”.. you said it your selfe,,if you have soldier fortyfing houses… then they are legit targets to level them.

3.Dubrovnik was hit by the navy, areas where fire came from where hit… hardly a massacre. And the reason it was hit is as a revenge for killing od 7 soldiers as the army/navy tired to widraw… sam that happend in Tuzla (one of them being my brother killed when their widrawing truck was machingunned just as they left the city, and he was just a conscript who was forced to got there.) and Sarajevo only on much greater scale 200+ tuzla and 50+ sarajevo

4. City of osjek had 30-40 % of serb population.. now there is about 2%… a “ethinc cleansing wouldnt you say”

5.So are you saying the so called “massacres” justified expulsion od 300 000 people and slaugter of thousands..??

“Bridges, Railroads, Postoffices, TV & Radio Stations, Factories in war are legitimate targets if opponent use them for military.I can’t remember any Yug hospital was damaged or destroyed in NATO strike, unlike hospitals in city I mentioned above.”

1.What hospitals? only one i Know of is in Vukovar when 500+ soldiers hid there.. it was hit once with tank shell as warning, after which they did surrender. Nato damaged VMA in Bg, Hit In the car part of hospital in Nis doing shrapmil damage to building and old folks home was leveled on zlatibor cause they thought it was army object.

2.When can a TV station be a military target??? It can at most be used as a political instrument but there is a huge difference between the two. How about the power plants.. does 1% of electricity going to army buildings justify plunging entire nation into dark and only 5 months before freezing winter.?

RE: Kosovo

That’s OK JAG… Thank you for pointing out that what I said might have been mistakenly seemed to have been directed at Geforce.:-)

The fact that you defend someone you are disagreeing with when you think they are being attacked personally is to your credit.

RE: Kosovo

There were more than just hospitals damaged, it was old people’s homes, maternity clinics etc. There’s no point in arguing about that though, they were all “mistakes” }>.

Anyway, like I said, both our nations have blood on their hands and there is little point in an argument over whose nation killed how many or deported how many etc. In my house in Belgrade we rented our flat out to several families of refugees (not at the same time obviously) from Bosnia and Croatia for the last eight years. I’m pretty sure you don’t want me to recount the horror stories I heard from them. I certainly would rather avoid telling them as it is very emotional. Likewise, I have no desire to hear the things you will probably tell me Serb troops or paramilitaries did. I know terrible things were done by all sides and I simply don’t need to hear it all again if it’s all the same. Please lets not get into a debate about it all.

One final thing. The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia in ’99 had nothing to do with morals, international law, human rights or justice. It was an attack on the Serbian nation, it’s armed forces, it’s industry and it’s population. It’s aim (which has been acheived) was to make Serbia listen and behave – like all the other states of eastern Europe. We were just stupid enough to defy NATO for long enough to make them pretty damn angry.

RE: Kosovo

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-05-02 AT 07:52 AM (GMT)]”And After the the 1941-45 NDH Nazi Eperience where you slaughtered half million serbs can you realy blames us for not wanting to be part od the same old croatia..”

And this is yours excuse for massacre and attacking civillian in Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Vinkovci, Osijek… and later in BiH Sarajevo, Gorazde, Srebrenica….

“Wrong!!! they could still bomb Hospitals, Bridges, Railroads, Postoffices, TV & Radio Stations, Factories etc.See Hawk what we are talikng about here is not NATO attacks on Yug Tanks, Artilety or airplanes, but leveling of civilian targets and intentional destruction of infrastructure and economy.”

Bridges, Railroads, Postoffices, TV & Radio Stations, Factories in war are legitimate targets if opponent use them for military.I can’t remember any Yug hospital was damaged or destroyed in NATO strike, unlike hospitals in city I mentioned above.

RE: Kosovo

“And in early 1991 Tudjman and Croats has have 0 tanks, 0 airplanes, 0 artillery so NATO will have nothing to bomb.”

Wrong!!! they could still bomb Hospitals, Bridges, Railroads, Postoffices, TV & Radio Stations, Factories etc. See Hawk what we are talikng about here is not NATO attacks on Yug Tanks, Artilety or airplanes, but leveling of civilian targets and intentional destruction of infrastructure and economy.

RE: Kosovo

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-05-02 AT 03:25 AM (GMT)]Yup you right Hawk. We were trying our best to prevent serbs in areas populated by 95% serbs live in Independent Croat Nation. And After the the 1941-45 NDH Nazi Eperience where you slaughtered half million serbs can you realy blames us for not wanting to be part od the same old croatia.. do you want me to post photos of HDZ (tudjmans rulling party) members using Nazi salute in 1990??

RE: Kosovo

Tudjman has propose confederation in 1990 or ’89 (cant remember exactly) to all republics of former SFRJ but Milosevic was against and his idea was that “all serbs must live in one country” and “where there are one serb there is Serbia”. And in early 1991 Tudjman and Croats has have 0 tanks, 0 airplanes, 0 artillery so NATO will have nothing to bomb.

RE: Kosovo

I’m surprised to hear you say that Hawk. Don’t you think they should have acted when Tudjman thought it would be nice to have an ethnically pure state and deported (or killed) hundreds of thousands of people whose families had been living in the region for 500 years or more?

Look, I know this could turn into a debate between us about everything since 1918 (or before if you’re particularly interested) but I think we should stop there. Neither of our nations has totally clean hands and to start arguing about whose are cleaner is a bit silly.

RE: Kosovo

NATO was eight year leate with intervention, when so called “JNA”(which in fact was made of serbs) was rampage trough first Slovenia then Croatia and then BiH they should act then.