L39 down 1st Sep 2012

Another lost today, though happily with two good ejections.

”The Breitling Jet Team has lost its number two aircraft during a team repositioning flight from Den Helder, Netherlands to Kleine Brogel, Belgium. The incident on 15 September involved an apparent engine problem with the Aero Vodochody L-39 Albatros and prompted pilot Bernard Charbonnel and technician Raphael Savoye to safely eject from the aircraft and land safely.

Realising something was wrong, pilot Charbonnel reported an engine problem with the No. 2 aircraft. Following standard team procedures, he calmly informed the team and left the formation accompanied by a second aircraft, selecting the safest place for the aircraft to come down, an empty field away from people and livestock.

Charbonnel said, “When we were returning from Van Helder and I felt unusual vibrations, I realised very quickly something was wrong and reported an engine problem. We followed the emergency procedures by the book and my technician ejected at 2,000ft and myself at 1,500ft at approximate speeds of 250 to 300 km/hour.”

Team Leader Jacques Bothelin said, “I am very proud of my team, their expertise and experience is second to none. With the timing from first vibrations to ejection being less than one minute, Charbo executed everything with cool professional airmanship.”

http://www.flyer.co.uk/aviation-news/newsfeed.php?artnum=1287

I think they were just turning a high banking left turn and the latter stalled in the jet wash.

Just my opinion of course. I mean the 30.6.2012 accident.

US accident was a cross over..maybe jetwash and stall too…maybe the engine stalled…had flame out ?

Those apparently have no e-seats.

What manouver were they performing at that point in the display?
It’s hard to tell from the video.

Was that contact within the formation ?

Video is indistinct, but seems very close.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2197042/Quad-City-Air-Show-Pilot-Glenn-Smith-dies-crash-vintage-plane-plummets-earth.html?videoPlayerURL=http%3A%2F%2Fc.brightcove.com%2Fservices%2Fviewer%2Ffederated_f9%3FisVid%3D1%26isUI%3D1%26publisherID%3D1418450360%26playerID%3D72484359001%26domain%3Dembed%26videoId%3D&hasBCVideo=true&BCVideoID=1818989942001

These accidents are very sad.
Could someone please amend the thread title to have the date please. I keep returning to the forum and think….on no, another L39 crash….

There’s also the FAA issue with Saphire engined L39’s. Appears the guy who came up with the modification was also the FAA inspector who signed off on the mod…. without any engineering reports etc.
That’s why the modified ones were all grounded at Reno last year. Something about the engine mounts not be up to the task of handling 50% more power? Apparently a couple have landed with the engine somewhat askew to the airframe..

Rick, the issue was with the re-engined L-29s, AFAIK nobody has done this mod to an L-39.

ah yes, my mistook.

A.S. Sapphire engine (7,500 – 10,000 Ib thrust), no wonder they were grounded!
I’m guessing the Viper engine, as in the popular L-29 conversion, is what you mean?
However the L-39 does use a Saphir mini gas turbine engine as an auxilary power unit and starter.

An alternate L-29 re-engine uses a Pratt & Whitney J60 (JT12):
http://www.easternblocaircraft.com/services.html*

Other aircraft with the JT12/J60:
Civilian (JT12)
Lockheed JetStar
North American Sabreliner

Military (J60)
T-2B Buckeye
T-39 Sabreliner
Sikorsky XH-59/S-69
XV-4 Hummingbird

* Apparently they have a L-39 re-engine scheme going… but you have to call them to find out what.

However:
L-139 Albatros 2000: Revised version with western avionics and 17.99 kN (4,045 lbf) Garrett TFE731-4-1T engine**. Single prototype built.

L-159: Further modernised advanced trainer/combat aircraft with more modern, western avionics and Honeywell F124 engine.

** Apparently, no airframe changes were needed, it just needed an adapter for the engine mountings.
http://www.l39.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=414

Andy,
Your retracted post leaves my response slightly disconnected, but if you just decided to diffuse the issue a bit, I thank you for that.
This troubled year has seen too many losses, some far away, and some , of course, very close to home.
Andy Smith

Andy,Yes I did.
Suddenly it didn’t seem worth arguing about.
Patty was a bit upset about his mate–and I confess my patience was a bit thin tonight.
He isn’t involved in aviation at all these days–and he doesn’t read here as far as I know.
He and I have stayed friends though, even though much has changed for both of us these days.
We stay in touch (and still see each other once in a while)–sadly I think we both had to do a bit of growing up.
Older and wiser as they say.

These accidents are complete b*stards–they keep removing good people.

See you around.
Andy

Andy,

Your retracted post leaves my response slightly disconnected, but if you just decided to diffuse the issue a bit, I thank you for that.

This troubled year has seen too many losses, some far away, and some , of course, very close to home.

Andy Smith

Many thanks , but I already know all about Steve Patterson, his Sea Fury and latterly his L-39. I was, after all, a participant in the same threads as yourself.

Whoever your mate may be, I have every sympathy for the loss he is feeling, having also grieved for friends lost in flying accidents.

I would suggest that my reaction, or public expressions, have zero effect on his mental state or any other circumstances, and perhaps it is your own heightened emotional condition that has prompted a strangely aggressive stance.

Despite 19 previous posts, not one person has apparently spared a thought for the pilot.
Someone who used to contribute much here once upon a time–and he also once owned a L-39 of his own, lost a good mate yesterday.
It might be a few cold statistics to many of you but someone died in a nasty fireball yesterday.
Andy

You alone have not cornered the market in compassion.

For most people here, their concern and regret for the loss of a fellow enthusiast is a given, genuine but often unspoken.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the clunky ”Blue skies, Mate’ kind of tributes. That aside, I do not feel I need to be told what sentiments I ought to be expressing, and when I should do it.

I can think of only two fatals, one at Dunsfold air show a few years back.

John Davies (?) i believe, poor chap. The only others i can think of off the top of my head are Wallace Cubitt in his T.7 “on the way” to an airshow and lost in bad weather, and an all blue single seater lost in the USA in a residential area a few years back, after taking off at an airshow and seemingly suffering loss of power whilst flying downwind.

Rob

There’s also the FAA issue with Saphire engined L39’s.

A.S. Sapphire engine (7,500 – 10,000 Ib thrust), no wonder they were grounded!
I’m guessing the Viper engine, as in the popular L-29 conversion, is what you mean?
However the L-39 does use a Saphir mini gas turbine engine as an auxilary power unit and starter.

What about the Hunter? Seem to recall several accidents, some fatal, to UK based privately owned aircraft.

I can think of only two fatals, one at Dunsfold air show a few years back.

Rick, the issue was with the re-engined L-29s, AFAIK nobody has done this mod to an L-39.

ah yes, my mistook.

If you want a relative indication of how prone an aircraft is to enter the accident statistics, then you would need to look at something like this:

(number of accidents)/(number of a/c flying x hours flown)

20 accidents in 14 years with 300 examples flying with private operators doesn’t seem excessive to me. How many Jet Provosts are flying privately?

The list also includes incidents such as an incorrectly closed canopy coming adrift on take-off, but it is incomplete (it doesn’t include the Duxford off-runway excursion for example) so shouldn’t be taken as a true measure of the type’s safety record.

Rick, the issue was with the re-engined L-29s, AFAIK nobody has done this mod to an L-39.

There’s also the FAA issue with Saphire engined L39’s. Appears the guy who came up with the modification was also the FAA inspector who signed off on the mod…. without any engineering reports etc.
That’s why the modified ones were all grounded at Reno last year. Something about the engine mounts not be up to the task of handling 50% more power? Apparently a couple have landed with the engine somewhat askew to the airframe..

The Hunter is a much faster and more powerful aircraft than both the L-39 and JP. I think fatal Hunter crashes at airshows in the past twenty years can almost be counted on one hand.

Rob

What about the Hunter? Seem to recall several accidents, some fatal, to UK based privately owned aircraft.

Ok granted, the L-39 is quicker by say 50mph give or take. But personally i cannot remember the last fatal accident that occured in a JP, let alone on a regular basis.
Also if one wanted to fly a JP or an Albatross here in the UK, what is the difference in CAA pilot licence requirements for the two types, as i always thought they could both be operated on a PPL?

Rob

Edit.. Looking on Google the JP is possible on a PPL, but i cannot find anything on flying the L-39 in the UK.

The JP in private hands has suffered from a number of accidents. Comparing the Jet Provost and Albatross doesnt really have a great deal of merit -the Albatross is quicker and far more are flying on the air display circuit in the U.S.