La Ferte Alais 2005, 2 quick videos

Respect

Very interesting contributions from all. Bradburger, thanks for taking the time to dig out pilot quotes.

I’m not going to speculate on ‘the incident’ – there’s more than enough material here for me to dwell on. I do have a few comments though.

Those of you who have seen Dave Southwood display ‘Black 6’ will have noticed the difference in, (how can I describe it), the ‘flow’ of the display, compared to this 109 in the video clip (even given that Laurent has had to crop the display sequence). Some of the display manoeuvres do not sit comfortably with me – such as the gear down fly-by. Some years ago I asked a well known Old Warden pilot why no down and dirty flypasts were flown by the Spitfire or Hurricane – he replied that to do so would place the aircraft and pilot in a perilous position in the event of an engine malfunction. As for the two wheeled landing technique, Dave Southwood had this to say about his experiences in ‘Black 6’:

The threshold is crossed at 175kph, the throttle closed, and the aircraft flared to a 3 point attitude

and towards the end of his thoughts…

I treat the ‘109 with greater respect than anything else that I fly, but the challenge to fly it well gives me greater satisfaction and enjoyment than probably any other aircraft.

Similarly, I hope the display pilot will from now on treat the ‘109 with more respect after his unorthodox display routine. He may also like to read Warbirds Worldwide edition 21 for a few tips.

Laurent, a big thank you for all your hard work in posting the videos. It’s a shame that the 109 antics have dominated the post, but it’s an inevitable outcome given our obvious concern for such a rare aircraft.

I usualy don’t like to comment what a pilot should have done or not done in case of accidents/incidents, so easy to explain the right procedure in a warm, stresless athmosphere.

If I would only dare, maybe just because I fly and juge a lot of aerobatics these days…: to my opinion, the only sign of ‘loosing control’ is when the pilot don’t (can’t ?) stop its descent to a normal 45deg dive but goes further to -at least- a 55deg descent.
I personnaly was really surprised by the Me109 tremandous acceleration. I guess the pilot had the same feeling and must have seen the ground suddenly running towards his face.
He’s obviously realised his dive was too deep and tried to correct it, this resulted in an over-reaction on the rudder (pulling) – unfortunately the a/c stalled in rotation but, no drama, it’s a known Aresti figure (at least the first 1/2 of it…) you can easily control, and he obviously did !

I didn’t spot any sign of spin nor inverted one.

We all make mistakes.
Wish I would get Ray Hanna’s flying skills !

Luckily, the airfield is situated on top of a hill – therefore he had sufficient air left under his wings……..

Martin

Only the right hand side of the airfield, as you look from the crowd, is on a hill. The left side is level country and the area behind the trees is deceptive. There is a small valley and then another ridge with houses on it. He could not have missed that by much. They are not much lower than the trees you can see and only a few hundred metres behind.

I’ve no idea of the geography of La Ferte Alais, but I bet there’s not too much gap between those trees he disappears behind and the ground.

Luckily, the airfield is situated on top of a hill – therefore he had sufficient air left under his wings……..

Martin

…bump

Having been away from the forum for a week or so, I was told about the 109/Buchon clip at the weekend and decided to have a look today.

The pilot is one lucky man – that’s a loss of control, no two ways about it. There is NO excuse for throwing such a rare aircraft around. Display her gently. Displaying does NOT mean aerobat. Let the crowd see a few topside passes. There’s no need to roll and loop the aircraft. I’ve no idea of the geography of La Ferte Alais, but I bet there’s not too much gap between those trees he disappears behind and the ground.

Agree fully with those who said that at a British show he’d have been told to land immediately.

Oh, and it should have a swastika on the fin too… 😉

Just a quick question what’s the black object that appears in the same video as the 109 just after its little incident.

A bee or wasp fairly close to the camera

DB engined Buchon at LFA

A few more photographs

Managed to get the contra Spit Video now

Its awsome video and amazing the effect the contra blades have,the wind whistling through them sounds just like bagpipes!

Just a quick question what’s the black object that appears in the same video as the 109 just after its little incident.

BTW great footage, but couldn’t open the spit video?

Why bother, its only another Spitfire……

Firstly I am not a pilot, but I would agree with everything Avros finest and Digby have said, It looks to my that the only thing that saved him from a smoking hole was his height. Had the Firefly had the same height ‘advantage’ at Legends would we be saying that it was a ‘Dirty Roll’ and its not a pitts special so don’t fly it like one.
BTW great footage, but couldn’t open the spit video?

The pilot’s version would be interesting.

Alex,

Clear your PMs.

done 🙂

Alex

Laurent,

Thanks very much for sharing these great videos.

Looks like a great couple of days!

Regarding the 109 ‘incident’.

Having seen the footage and read the comments here several times now, it looks to me like the aircraft did not depart controlled flight as suggested but actually performed a rather untidy roll – a bit like DBW described.

I think it’s worth considering the 109’s characteristics in this region of flight when making any assessment.

Whilst it does indeed have a higher wing loading than the equivalent MK of Spitfire, all pilots who have flown the 109 will tell you that it is actually very benign in both an accelerated stall and normal 1g power on/off one. It is also quite controllable too with good aileron control right down to the stall (thanks to the leading edge auto slats) and has no tendency to flick out of accelerated stall like some of the other WWII types did.

As the late Mark Hanna wrote in article on flying the Buchon/109G-10:

“As CL max is reached the leading edge slats deploy – together if the ball is in the middle, slightly asymmetrically if you have any slip on. The aircraft delights in being pulled into hard manoeuvring turns at these slower speeds. As the slats pop out you feel a slight “notching” on the stick and you can pull more until the whole airframe is buffeting quite hard. A little more and you will drop a wing, but you have to be crass to do it unintentionally.”

And Dave Southwood in an article about flying “Black 6”:

In a turn at 280kphwith display power set, stall warning is given by light buffet at 3g, and the stall occurs at 3.5g with the inside wing dropping. Again, recovery is instant on easing the stick forward. One interesting feature is the leading edge slats. When these deploy at low speeds or in a turn, a ‘clunk’ can be heard and felt, but there is no disturbance to the aircraft about any axis.

One area it isn’t so nice in is it’s directional stability in yaw and as it has no pilot controllable rudder trim, this of course means that there is lots of work to do if balanced and coordinated flight is to be achieved – i.e. at the top of a loop, half Cuban, or wing over.

Here’s what Dave said about this:

“There are two problem areas in yaw control with the ‘109. Firstly, directional stability is low and marked slip ball excursions occur with any changes of speed or power. Also, there is moderate adverse aileron yaw (right yaw when left aileron is applied, and vice versa). The rudder force to centralise the slip ball is low, but constant rudder inputs are required during manoeuvres to minimise sideslip. If the slip ball is not kept central, the lateral force on the pilot is not uncomfortable and no handling problems occur, but it looks very untidy in a display. At the top of a left wingover, you are very cross-controlled, with left aileron and lots of right rudder applied. This lack of directional stability makes it hard work to fly the aircraft accurately and neatly, although there are no safety problems. The second problem is the lack of a cockpit adjustable rudder trimmer. The fixed tab is set so that the rudder is in trim during the cruise, reducing footloads during long transits. However, for all other airspeed and power combinations, a rudder force must be applied. This is an annoying feature, and I am surprised that a rudder trim tab was never fitted to later models such as the Gustav”.

With these factors in mind, it looks to me that the pilot applied too much forward stick during the second roll, didn’t anticipate the subsequent amount of yaw or coudn’t control it, and thus failed to keep the aircraft in balance, hence the large amount of yaw that we saw. I would have thought that a departure/incipient spin would have occurred at the top of the half cuban (prior too or just as he rolled out) but I see no sign of this in the clip and doubt it would be very dramatic given what I posted above regarding the 109’s accelerated stall traits.

It would be interesting to see the full resolution version to see the position of the controls during the roll, but even after all the conjecture, I guess, as the great Alex Henshaw said, “Only he in the cockpit knows what really happened!”

Oh, one thing that did surprise me more was the fact that the pilot opted for a rather ‘hot’ wheel landing, something I always thought 109 pilots tried to avoid given it’s reputation for ground looping! 😮

Cheers

Paul

Italian Harvard

Alex,

Clear your PMs.

A wing stall does not necessarily mean a spin. But yes, to enter a spin, the stalling is a necessary component. Not quite ‘chicken or the egg’ stuff…

I’ve had bucketloads of wingstalls in air to air combat manouevring, in all attitudes, load factors and control deflections, and never once has it turned into a spin. Of course it is possible, just not mandatory.

A wing stall in that configuration means a spin

Which is exactly what he did, a one turn inverted spin. The pilot caught it before it developed any further.

Just watched the video clip, and having worked on a Bf109 for the best part of 20yrs and seeing that one crash. I believe that was a very lucky escape!!!!!!

yes, great videos Laurent! Thanks a lot! 🙂

Alex

Laurent – you’re a star – thanks very much for these. The eastern front one doesn’t seem to be there though?

Oooops, made a typo. That’s corrected now.

Thanks 😉

Laurent