Lafayette armed ASTER anti-air system

I believe that the contract for the frigates included upgrades. So if Taiwan wanted to upgrade her fleet of frigates with the 16-cell MICA VL launcher then that would be looked at as an upgrade and would fall under the original contract.

A TC-2 vertical launch system would be nice but it would take too long to build a vertical launch system and modify the missile for use on ships. Since the MICA is already in service with Taiwan and is a very modern missile I believe Taiwan should upgrade her fleet with this missile and ditch the Chaparral systems.

Really, Taiwans only real choice is to field a TC-2 based VLS or stick with a US System. IMO:cool:

Nelson,

I think it is a given that, where VLMICA to be placed on the table for upgrading the Kang Dings the ROCN would leap on it. In many ways VL MICA would be a more telling weapon system for the ROCN than SM-2 as the PLAN dont really need to sweat SM-2 too badly as they already have that system, as fielded by the ROCN, defeated.

VLMICA on the other hand, in concert with expend. softkill and the signature reduction of the basic Lafayette design could make the Kang Dings very hard targets for practical saturation fire attack with AShM’s.

It is for this reason that MBDA will be being encouraged, by various European Govts, not to supply that system to the ROCN. The PRC do NOT want to see an active missile in the ROCN inventory because the virtual attrition factor ramps way the hell up.

To reiterate – adapting an AAM to naval utilisation isn’t without precedent RIM-7, VLMICA have converted pretty well and even Aster is just, basically, an evolved MICA sat atop a fat booster stage. TC-2 would appear to offer the foundations of a weapon system that could, given the technical capability and resources, successfully follow the same evolutionary path. For the returns in terms of fleet surviveability that undertaking that evolutionary path could deliver the ROCN’s choice seems an obvious one!.

I believe that the contract for the frigates included upgrades. So if Taiwan wanted to upgrade her fleet of frigates with the 16-cell MICA VL launcher then that would be looked at as an upgrade and would fall under the original contract.

A TC-2 vertical launch system would be nice but it would take too long to build a vertical launch system and modify the missile for use on ships. Since the MICA is already in service with Taiwan and is a very modern missile I believe Taiwan should upgrade her fleet with this missile and ditch the Chaparral systems.

Depends how the contract is written, even then the french could still refuse.

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Hope away but it will almost certainly not happen, France has stopped selling new weapons to Taiwan in the hope that when they get the embargo on China lifted they will go on a spending spree. Taiwans only real option is itself and the US.

I believe that the contract for the frigates included upgrades. So if Taiwan wanted to upgrade her fleet of frigates with the 16-cell MICA VL launcher then that would be looked at as an upgrade and would fall under the original contract.

A TC-2 vertical launch system would be nice but it would take too long to build a vertical launch system and modify the missile for use on ships. Since the MICA is already in service with Taiwan and is a very modern missile I believe Taiwan should upgrade her fleet with this missile and ditch the Chaparral systems.

The ROCN had no choice when it came to the systems fit of their LaFayette, they were delivered lacking much of the standard electronics fit forcing them to cobble together a mutant hybrid fit of French, American and local systems. Hence the rather odd choice of Chaparral among other things.

On the other hand even with the procurement scandal surrounding the frigate purchase beggers can’t be choosy and the deal did tie in with the real prize which was the Dassault Mirage 2000 which was delivered with a comprehensive systems and missile fit.

The entire procurement was a complete shambles. The initial plan was for 16 corvette size vessels but the French managed to bribe the much larger LaFayette into the contract. That resulted in the program being far more expensive than initially planned. The initial deal was for 6 ships with 10 more as options, not unsurprisingly the 10 options were cancelled after the true insanity of what happened (including a dead body IIRC) became known.

I am actually quite a fan of the original LaFayette’s they have the ability to upgrade to carry 16 Aster-15s in addition to the 24 crotales. (if anybody knows what radar is envisaged for such upgrade I would be very thankful?) Giving them a reasonable AAW capability. Frankly the Kang Dings are very poorly equipped vessels by comparison. My point being that if the Taiwanese really did want Lafayettes they should have just bought the basic version and bought into the Aster program to ensure delivery of the weapon for a later upgrade.

The ROCN had no choice when it came to the systems fit of their LaFayette, they were delivered lacking much of the standard electronics fit forcing them to cobble together a mutant hybrid fit of French, American and local systems. Hence the rather odd choice of Chaparral among other things.

On the other hand even with the procurement scandal surrounding the frigate purchase beggers can’t be choosy and the deal did tie in with the real prize which was the Dassault Mirage 2000 which was delivered with a comprehensive systems and missile fit.

With all due respect Scooter ESSM isnt really a good fit here. Firstly I dont think the US has a lightweight X-band director it can provide to handle the fire control and I dont see Thales being too eager to provide SEAPAR or the Aussies to come through with CEA Mount to accomplish the task.

I dont think that any of the lightweight mechanically-trained directors associated with ESSM currently would be sufficient in capability to offer a practical solution in Taiwans threat environment so I wouldnt even investigate that option.

To be honest in the ROCN’s position I’d want an active missile from the gitgo and would be strongly encouraging of them going down the TC-2 route. So much so in fact, in their shoes, I might be looking at some kind of booster/missile combination with TC-2 for an Aster-style area defence weapon to replace SM-2 on the Kidds. If they can knock together a VLS that could quadpack Naval TC-2’s and accomodate an ER version retrofitting the Kidds would enhance their capabilities by several orders of magnitude.

Well, I don’t see France as being eager to equipped US Systems on one of its designs. Yet, Taiwan owns them and systems are available. So, I don’t hardly think its out of the question. Especially, considering Taiwan relies on much of its weaponry from the US. As for the TC-2 modified for naval surface. Well, that is clearly a option. Yet, with all do respect……….I would be surprised in it could out perform SM-2’s. Though I would have to admit that many more could be carried.:o

With all due respect Scooter ESSM isnt really a good fit here. Firstly I dont think the US has a lightweight X-band director it can provide to handle the fire control and I dont see Thales being too eager to provide SEAPAR or the Aussies to come through with CEA Mount to accomplish the task.

I dont think that any of the lightweight mechanically-trained directors associated with ESSM currently would be sufficient in capability to offer a practical solution in Taiwans threat environment so I wouldnt even investigate that option.

To be honest in the ROCN’s position I’d want an active missile from the gitgo and would be strongly encouraging of them going down the TC-2 route. So much so in fact, in their shoes, I might be looking at some kind of booster/missile combination with TC-2 for an Aster-style area defence weapon to replace SM-2 on the Kidds. If they can knock together a VLS that could quadpack Naval TC-2’s and accomodate an ER version retrofitting the Kidds would enhance their capabilities by several orders of magnitude.

I think I would go down the TC-2 route too. It would be a boost for the indigenous industry as well. IIRC the land based Sky Bow 1 & 2 missiles have pretty impressive rang but I dont know much about their size or accuracy?:confused:

A quick google search reveals that Sky Bow 2 is huge, 2.5 metres longer than an SM-3!!!:eek:

With all due respect Scooter ESSM isnt really a good fit here. Firstly I dont think the US has a lightweight X-band director it can provide to handle the fire control and I dont see Thales being too eager to provide SEAPAR or the Aussies to come through with CEA Mount to accomplish the task.

I dont think that any of the lightweight mechanically-trained directors associated with ESSM currently would be sufficient in capability to offer a practical solution in Taiwans threat environment so I wouldnt even investigate that option.

To be honest in the ROCN’s position I’d want an active missile from the gitgo and would be strongly encouraging of them going down the TC-2 route. So much so in fact, in their shoes, I might be looking at some kind of booster/missile combination with TC-2 for an Aster-style area defence weapon to replace SM-2 on the Kidds. If they can knock together a VLS that could quadpack Naval TC-2’s and accomodate an ER version retrofitting the Kidds would enhance their capabilities by several orders of magnitude.

Sarkozy wont sell arms to Taiwan and frrankly it is unlikely that Israel would either.

I wonder if the US Mk 41 could be adopted? If, so the ESSM would make a likely choice………..:D

yes

There is room for 16 Sylver cells on the La Fayette class frigate, but I do not believe they have been installed.

yes,but i have saw a pic about La Fayette armed MICA anti-air system

There is room for 16 Sylver cells on the La Fayette class frigate, but I do not believe they have been installed.

Sarkozy wont sell arms to Taiwan and frrankly it is unlikely that Israel would either.

Hope away but it will almost certainly not happen, France has stopped selling new weapons to Taiwan in the hope that when they get the embargo on China lifted they will go on a spending spree.

Not anymore. That was while Chirac was in power – Sarkozy hasn’t shown any interest in lifting the embargo so far. The French position on arms sales is more to do with trade ties, though Chirac also wanted diplomatic clout by cosing up to China – whereas Sarkozy is happy to get on with the UK and US.

So France just needs to sell Aster to Israel but make sure Israel knows that on no account must they give it to Taiwan and in 5 minutes them Lafayettes will be fitted with Aster

France hasn’t actually refused to sell anything to Taiwan again. I think Taiwan was quoted a price in upgrading the Lafayette with Aster missiles, but the problem was that it was ridiculously expensive.

chinese won’t agree it!!

They don’t have to. :p

The French themselves have always done a pretty good job of leaking technology, if and when it was in their perceived national interest.

A cynic might say the usual means of avoiding this little problem is to give technology to Israel and stipulate they’re not allowed to sell it on to the countries in question. So France just needs to sell Aster to Israel but make sure Israel knows that on no account must they give it to Taiwan and in 5 minutes them Lafayettes will be fitted with Aster:diablo:

haha

Hope away but it will almost certainly not happen, France has stopped selling new weapons to Taiwan in the hope that when they get the embargo on China lifted they will go on a spending spree. Taiwans only real option is itself and the US.

chinese won’t agree it!!

I was hoping for a 16-cell MICA vertical launch system upgrade for Taiwan’s ships.

Hope away but it will almost certainly not happen, France has stopped selling new weapons to Taiwan in the hope that when they get the embargo on China lifted they will go on a spending spree. Taiwans only real option is itself and the US.

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I was hoping for a 16-cell MICA vertical launch system upgrade for Taiwan’s ships.