Lake Sebago Corsair (JT160) Video on Youtube

Attempts to find the families have certainly been made.

Whilst understanding the reservations of the ‘commercial’ aspect of the recovery (I mentioned this in my BAW article) it is the only realistic way the recovery is ever likely to happen. The US Govt won’t get involved and the British MOD actively pursued a legal action to block the intended recovery. Since then, however, one of the principal players in trying to get this recovery to happen (a US Admiralty lawyer) has passed away and I suspect that any initiative to take things forward will have stalled because of that.

to me if the recovery of the airframe facilitates the recovery of the remains then all well and good and good luck to them. Although I feel the wishes of the families are paramount. I am sure it must be possible in this day and age to trace them.

As it stands the wreck will eventually rot out and the pilot’s mortal remains will be scattered . In the bigger scheme of things the remains are important and deserve a fitting burial. The aircraft itself has a value but not a massive one. So whether its recovered commercially or by the military doesn’t really matter as long as it is carried out with respect as I am sure it would be . I am sure the unfortunate pilots in this case would rather their deaths achieve something whether as a flying Corsair delighting the public or as a static
museum piece .

… personally I feel strongly that there is something morally repugnant about recovering an air frame simply for commercial purposes…

I have heard some horrific tales of what has happened to human remains in the past in wrecks recovered in Russia for onward sale (usually) abroad, so I agree; whether an inconvenient pilots body really was washed out of a cockpit by high pressure hose I know not, but that sort of (hopefully made up) story makes the idea of recovery for personal gain appear disrespectful – not as disrespectful as not actually recovering crew members when discovered, but still a little…sick. I do realise that what may have happened in one country should not colour all recoveries (and I fully understand that nothing like that would happen to the crew members in this case) but, as we all know, one bad example can influence all that follows – witness just about every story in the Daily Mail.

And talking of respect, shouldn’t this video be removed since it obviously shows the mortal remains of S/L R L Knott?

I must admit to mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, the recovery of the missing airmen and a proper burial can only be a good thing. But personally I feel strongly that there is something morally repugnant about recovering an air frame simply for commercial purposes. A museum recovery I could support, as it ensures the long term preservation of the air frame and provides both a valuable educational tool and a way to remember the crews who flew them. But disturbing a person’s final resting place because there’s a profit to be made? Sorry but no. Not without the consent of NOK.

Well maybe its time for a petition to highlight the poor state of affairs?

Just enfuriates one that he is not recovered….

Just to clarify; this wasn’t a ‘dive’ but a survey by a ROV. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has dived it.

Not sure how, or by whom, this video got to be released – but that is another story.

In some of the footage I have seen it is very clear that there is a parachute pack and a bundle of what seems to be flying clothing in the forward cockpit well and against the panel. Drifting upward in the water there is a tangle of parachute shroud lines. One can draw conclusions from this alone, but other images clearly show other evidence that the pilot is in the cockpit. Certainly, he continues to be listed as ‘missing’.

What I can’t understand is how cleanly the windshield and framework appear to have been removed….?

The American WIX Forum has begun again to discuss this sorry tale; one post includes a link to the last time the topic was
raised, in 2009.

In the 2009 posts there are claims and counter claims as to who found the remains first, a reference to eye witness accounts of the accident , and mention of possibly more Fleet Air Arm aircraft wrecks in the state of Maine.

[http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50720&sid=607f31ad11f670c7bcedf47d77c39483

4th post refers

DD

And just a child at that at the age of 19. Has there been any success in searching for family members??? Andy??

I find it incredible, that so much effort went into raising the Dornier 17, all very laudible, but there is clearly the body of one of our servicemen which has been ignored for years, I am sure organisations in the US would assist in raising the remains, I find it very twisted but not very surprising.

Wonder what happened to the windshield and framework and is that the poor Pilot you can see? Why has this not been recovered and the man given a proper burial??

I think it is, certainly looks like a forearm.

Thank you for the clarification Bager, interesting reading.

Why do you believe that Dave?

It is a matter of record (as in, in the court records of the Federal District Court with jurisdiction over the State of Maine) that two Royal Navy Corsairs, containing the remains of Royal Navy pilots Vaughan Reginald Gill and Raymond L. Knott, are located at the bottom of Lake Sebago, Maine, USA.

Two WWII fighter planes will remain submerged

By Associated Press
November 25, 2003 2:00 AM

PORTLAND, Maine — Two World War II fighter planes at the bottom of Sebago Lake since a training accident in 1944 will remain there, a federal judge ruled Monday.

Historic Aircraft Restoration Corp. found one of the sunken planes in July through the use of sonar images and a remote-controlled underwater video camera.

The company sued for permission to salvage the Corsairs out of Sebago Lake, Maine’s deepest. The state and the British government, whose two pilots died in the crash, objected.

U.S. District Judge George Z. Singal said it’s not his place to decide.

Part of the company’s argument is under “the law of salvage” and “the law of finds,” both of which fall under the broader designation of “admiralty law.” Federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction in admiralty cases.

Singal ruled that admiralty law does not apply in the case because Sebago Lake is not navigable for federal purposes.

…..

Singal rejected an argument that any salvage operation falls under admiralty law.

By dismissing the case, Singal essentially ruled for the Maine and British governments.

…..

Assistant Attorney General William H. Laubenstein III, said that “at this point, it appears the aircraft is at the bottom of Sebago Lake and property of the State of Maine.”

The gull-winged planes are Voight Corsair F4U-1 fighters. They took off on May 16, 1944 from the Brunswick Naval Air Station.

The planes collided over Sebago Lake. Killed were Royal Navy pilots Vaughan Reginald Gill and Raymond L. Knott.

…..

Here is our previous thread on the subject: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?95565-Corsair-Aircraft-Lake-Sebago

I was slightly perturbed (although probably not surprised) to find this, as I beleive the aircraft still contains the remains of the pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yYNd6Msp9s

Why do you believe that Dave?

Watching that video made me feel so, so sad.

DD

Care to refresh us Andy ?

In a nutshell because the British Government refused to allow the recovery and actively went out of their way to prevent it. Much to the disgust of many people. Apparently giving this poor pilot the chance of decent burial does not fit with our governments policies. Andy has written on the subject numerous times i believe. In one of his fantastic books, Finding the fallen, read it it is a real education! Also in the series Finding the few and finding the foe.

Care to refresh us Andy ?

I wrote a detailed article about this in ‘Britain at War’ a year or so back.

The full story can be found there. It is also in my book ‘Finding The Fallen’. A sad story indeed.