Lancaster jet testbed

there was at least one lanc with a bomb bay mounted jet engine in a necelle, it was flown by the Swedes, i’ll see if i can find reference to it.
that B2 in the pic, wasn’t it the one that had either a Python or Dart turboprop mounted in the nose at a later date?.
Greg

I would have thought that a bomb bay jet engine would have scorched the tail a bit or would they have only started it up once it was in the air.

Ali

If it’s any use any more, the only two Lancaster’s with jet engines at Bruntingthorpe were Lancaster II LL735 which was operated by Power Jets, and Lancaster III ND784/G operated by Armstrong Siddeley – Power Jets didn’t arrive until September ’44, and Armstrong Siddeley started their testing programme in June ’45 – as well as those two, there was also a Halifax VII RG817 operated there for a short while by Power Jets, apart from two Wellingtons used by Power Jets that’s all of the testbeds for the jet engines (unless you count the four Meteor’s)

LL735

Just thought you may be interested to know that I’ve used the photos of Lancaster Jet Testbed LL735 to build a 1:72nd scale replica. It is still work in progress and will be a few more weeks before it’s finished, but this is what it looks like so far:

It has been based upon the Airfix Grand Slam 1:72 Lancaster with Paragon Resin Mk II Hercules Engine conversion kit, with a scratch built jet engine and above tail intake.

I would be most grateful if anyone can point me towards any more information concerning LL735, and the later LL735 with the engine in the bomb bay, as I’m thinking of building that in 1:48th scale.

Julian

Lancaster VM703 with Ghosts and RATO

This is the only picture I have come across that shows a Lancaster/Lancastrian using RATO.
Source: “Lancaster in Action” page 50.

Lancasters used for turbojet testing

Having trawled through my little library and othe sources, here is my current “definitive” list of Lancasters that were used to test turbojets, either in nacelles or in the tail:

June 29, 1943 at Baginton, Lancaster BT308 (first prototype Lancaster; standard Manchester airframe with new wing centre sections and 4 engines, Metrovick F.2/1 installed in tail; the 3rd Metrovick turbojet but the first to fly. SOC at RAE Farnborough May 30, 1944.
? 1945 at ?, Lancaster LL735, replacement for BT308, Metrovick Beryl F.2/4 in rear fuselage.
September 28, 1945 (April 1943?) at ?, Lancaster? ND784/G, Armstrong Siddeley Motors ASX in bomb bay. Later had a Mamba installed in the nose.
August 8, 14 or 16, 1946 at Hucknall, Lancastrian VH742, 2 x RR Nene 1 in outboard nacelles; originally to be Lancaster B Mk I PD179 but completed as C Mk I and re-serialled. Later had a RR Tay engine installed but did not fly with it as the Tay was cancelled in October 1949, aircraft dismantled.
January 17, 1947 at Hucknall, Lancastrian VH737, 2 x RR Nene 1 in outboard nacelles, to be Lancaster B Mk I PD167 but completed as C Mk I and re-serialled. Mainly used for deicing trials with spray grid ahead of port side Nene intake.
July 24, 1947 at Hatfield, Lancastrian VM703/R, 2 x DH Ghost in outboard nacelles.
August 15, 1948 at ?, Lancastrian VM732, 2 x RR Avon RA.2 in outboard nacelles; allocated G-AGPK but believed never to have carried this registration. Later had RA.3 engines installed.
? 1948 at ?, Lancastrian VL970, 2 x RR Avon RA.2 in outboard nacelles; successively fitted with RA.3s, RA.7s, RA.9s and RA.14s. Crashed due to assymmetric power on take-off on March 29, 1955.
? 1949 at ?, Lancaster LL735, Metrovick F.2/4 in bomb bay.
? 1950 at ?, Canada, Lancaster Mk 10-O FM209, 2 x Avro Orenda in outer nacelles.
June 27, 1951 at Linköping, Sweden, Lancaster RA801 converted and in RswAF as 80001, RM4 Dovern under fuselage; later had DH Ghost with afterburner installed. Crashed May 8, 1956.
May or November 1952 at Bitteswell, Lancaster SW342, Armstrong Siddeley Motors Viper 3 in tail; had previously flown with Mamba turboprop in nose and Adder in tail (date unknown). Dismantled August 1956.

Any corrections, additions or other information is very welcome (to me at least!)

Lancaster ND784 was used to test the Armstrong Siddeley AWX. A picture of this aircraft with the engine mounted in the bomb bay can found further down the page that JonathanF linked to.

The Air Britain Lancaster File gives a date of 28.9.45 for the first flight of ND784 with this combination. Later, the aircraft went on to test the Mamba.

Lancaster Engine testbed serials:

R5849: Merlin testbed
BT308: Metrovick F.2, FF 29.6.43
FM209: Avro Orenda, FF13.7.50
LL735: Metrovick F.2/4 Beryl plus 3,750 lb ST F.2/4 in bomb bay during 1949
ND784: Armstrong Siddeley ASX in bomb bay, FF 28.9.45, later fitted with Mamba in nose, FF 21.10.47
NG465: Rolls-Royce Dart, FF 10.10.47
PP779: Rolls-Royce Merlins
PP791: Rolls-Royce Merlins
RE137: AS Python mock-ups in outer nacelles
SW342: Mamba in nose, later fitted with Adder in tail, then Viper in tail
TW911: Pythons in outer nacelles, FF 3.1.49
8001 (ex RA801): 7,380 lb ST Dovern, later fitted with Ghost with afterburner

Best wishes
Steve P

My list of Lancaster/Lancastrian jet test bed first flights

Lancaster with Metrovick F.2 June 29, 1943
Lancastrian with Nene (1) August 14, 1946
Lancastrian with Nene (2) January 17, 1947
Lancastrian with Ghost July 24, 1947
Lancastrian C.2 with Avon (1) August 15, 1948
Lancastrian with Avon (2) 1948
Lancaster with Beryl 1948
Lincoln with Derwent October 1950
Lancaster with Dovern (Sweden) May 3, 1951
Lancaster with Viper November 1952

And that doesn’t include the several Dart, Mamba and other turboprop engines!
If anyone can supply details of the serial numbers and the missing dates I would be most grateful.

Mamba Powered Lancaster VI

…that B2 in the pic, wasn’t it the one that had either a Python or Dart turboprop mounted in the nose at a later date?.
Greg

The Dart-Lancaster first flew on October 10, 1947, there was also a Mamba-Lancaster (ND784/G) which was converted by Air Service Training Ltd. It was a Mk VI with Merlin 85’s and was originally used to test the A.S.X. motor (?). Apparently 2 Merlins plus the Mamba gave it a speed of 235 mph at 2,000 ft – 30 mph higher than with 4 Merlins. Here she is:

I have also come across a reference to a second Nene Lancastrian, VH737, (“The Aeroplane Spotter”, May 31 1947, pg 113) they even have a 3-view! Next to the article on the Nene Lancastrian is one on the Theseus Lincoln, RA716/G – with photo & 3-view.

Wellington turbojet test beds

W.2B in the tail of Wellington II W5389/G in November 1942; had Mk IV wings and Merlin 62 engines.
Wellington II W5518 in similar configuration; these two were used to test at least 15 different jet engines in their tails, with a total of 512 hours in 366 separate fights, all in 1944 and 1945.
(Source Vicker/Putnams p. 363)
However this really has nothing to do with the original subject of this thread!

i live about 3 miles from rr hucknall and i think the first aircraft they flew testing a jet engine was in the rear turret of a wellington there were lancaster with nenes and avons also that flew from hucknall as did the avro ashton but dates i,m not sure but i know i saw them flying around nottinghamshire in the early 1950s , dragline(dab)

landyman, that was the Dovern test bed, a Lancaster that was converted in the UK and sold to the Swedes to test the Dovern turbojet engine in an under-fuselage nacelle. It first flew as an engine test bed on May 3, 1951, long, long after the date sought in this thread!

Did any Lancasters fly (at that time) with a nacelled engine attached to the bomb bay? That might fit the bill as far as a description of RATO goes. Did any Lanc ever get fitted for RATO? – Nermal

there was at least one lanc with a bomb bay mounted jet engine in a necelle, it was flown by the Swedes, i’ll see if i can find reference to it.
that B2 in the pic, wasn’t it the one that had either a Python or Dart turboprop mounted in the nose at a later date?.
Greg

[IMG]

Perhaps not adding to the debate much but, for anyone who might be interested, this shot of LL735 was taken over the northern part of Coventry showing Foleshill, Holbrooks and Radford.
Under the starboard wingtip is what is now Dunlop (where I did my apprenticeship eons ago) which was, when the picture was taken, an S.S. Cars (Jaguar) factory building, amongst other things, major parts of Whitleys and Meteors. Under the port wing is the sports ground of what was Cortaulds,
On the full picture can be seen (in front of the port wing) most of the site of what was Radford Aerodrome (by this time fully built over) where many thousands of aircraft (RE8s, Sopwith Pups, Avro 504s, etc) had their maiden flights during WW1.

Roger Smith.

I get your point Jonathan. The issue may turn out to be your source’s memoires/memories. Memory tends not to be linear and the possibility of things being muddled up are significant. As you suggest, a RATO arrangement behind the bomb-bay, a tail mounted jet and a chance sighting of a subsequent outboard jet engined aircraft (or photo thereof) could easily be aggregated together when looking back in time. A friend on my father’s flew Halifaxes, he insists and wrote a book in which he flew Lancs, his logbook says otherwise. 😎

Did any Lancasters fly (at that time) with a nacelled engine attached to the bomb bay? That might fit the bill as far as a description of RATO goes. Did any Lanc ever get fitted for RATO? – Nermal

Jonathan

Not sure what you mean … these three references all have dates that DO ALIGN with your chap’s memoires …
– your first reference says June 1943 on the prototype BT308
– the raf/history/lineage ref says that BT 308 was used as a test-bed “later” (meaning later than Sep ’41)
– the wikipedia reference about the Metrovick F.2 says “Flyable versions, the F.2/1, were flown on an Avro Lancaster test-bed in the spring of 1943”

All we’re looking for is a “trusted reference” I assume – and a photo!

Oh, the dates for a “jet engined testbed Lancaster” (BT308) line up perfectly, it’s just that BT308 was not, as far as we can tell, flown with engines in nacelles, which are clearly described by the chap in question. Rather, and like the other examples mentioned, it flew with the engine in the fuselage and (I assume), all four Merlins intact. the first reference to a Lanc with nacelle outboard jet engines is the 1946 one referred to in my first post. The sources also suggest that BT308 retained the Manchester vertical fin. All of which is frustrating! So yes, we are looking for proof, but proof that either BT308 flew in radically different configuration for a time, or that there was indeed another aircraft out there testing pod style engines and using a RATO to get airborne. It’s seeming less likely as we go on, I know.

We’ll see what transpires when I meet the veteran in question. Thanks for all your help on this one.

Jonathan

Not sure what you mean … these three references all have dates that DO ALIGN with your chap’s memoires …
– your first reference says June 1943 on the prototype BT308
– the raf/history/lineage ref says that BT 308 was used as a test-bed “later” (meaning later than Sep ’41)
– the wikipedia reference about the Metrovick F.2 says “Flyable versions, the F.2/1, were flown on an Avro Lancaster test-bed in the spring of 1943”

All we’re looking for is a “trusted reference” I assume – and a photo!

Guys, JanathanF in particular, the reference you link to says the first such conversion was in Lancaster prototype BT308. This aircraft was a standard Machester airframe with new wing centre sections and 4 engines. It had the triple tail structure of the Machester BUT if you look here …

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/lineage1.html

… you’ll see reference to the fact(?) that it was: “Later, used by Rolls Royce for trial work and then to Armstrong Whitworth and fitted with Metrovick jet engine in rear fuselage.”

This is interesting!

Very! See this web reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrovick_F.2 . Trouble is, like the other early turbojets in these airframes, the sources state that it was rear-fuselage mounted. I wonder if our witness, when he refers to a RATO on the rear fuselage, might have mistaken the mods made to accomodate other jet designs on previous flights? The date still doesn’t add up unfortunately. We can only call absence of evidence not being the opposite until a reference is found. I’ll try and check the paper literature in more detail, but I expect if no-one here has ever seen it, it probably doesn’t exist.

Guys, JanathanF in particular, the reference you link to says the first such conversion was in Lancaster prototype BT308. This aircraft was a standard Machester airframe with new wing centre sections and 4 engines. It had the triple tail structure of the Machester BUT if you look here …

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/lineage1.html

… you’ll see reference to the fact(?) that it was: “Later, used by Rolls Royce for trial work and then to Armstrong Whitworth and fitted with Metrovick jet engine in rear fuselage.”

This is interesting!

I’d believe those dates for the second pic. Lancaster II (?), and tail mounted. Any Lancaster experts tell us when LL735 was built?