Lancaster ops route query 1943

Hey guys, sorry for confusing the issue. LK687 was shot down by von bonin, but…..the following night. Danny

Maybe it is the times that are the problem as I cannot seem to get JB221 to where it was shot down if it took-off from Bourn at 00:30 hours British time and was shot-down at 02:45 hours German time.

Creaking, yes you are correct, Brandau is in the Modautal, it is just so darn small, that if you don’t slow down you went out the other side of town without even noticing.
I am still wondering how von Bonin was creditied with 3 kills and looking at date, there is a forth, or one that cannot be explained away. Danny

Of interest the Codes for Halifax LW326 were TL.H

John

Creaking Door, many thanks.
That site for calculating distance and bearing from Lat Longs is a super resource.
Why the hell didn’t yhe RAF provide it when I was playing at being a nav/rad, would have saved no end of bother.

I’ve been having another look at the route and timings for JB221 trying to figure out a possible explanation for the crash location (which is almost due south of Frankfurt). It all really depends on the difference between British and German time; German time is likely to have been ahead by one hour or the same as British time but could it possibly have been one hour behind?

The suggested ‘A’ route to the crash site is 500 miles long so assuming the British take-off time for JB221 [00:30:00] and the German crash time {02:45:00} are correct and that JB221 kept fairly close to the route suggested then the groundspeed for JB221 can be calculated:

[00:30:00] to {02:45:00} [01:45:00] is [01:15:00] so a groundspeed of 400mph
[00:30:00] to {02:45:00} [02:45:00] is [02:15:00] so a groundspeed of 222mph
[00:30:00] to {02:45:00} [03:45:00] is [03:15:00] so a groundspeed of 154mph

Which gives me a bit of a problem as clearly a groundspeed of 400mph is ludicrous for a Lancaster but I doubt that German time was an hour behind British time during the war (although it is possible). :confused:

The other thing that causes a problem is that I cannot see a crew as experienced as that of JB221 deliberately turning south directly after the target some eleven miles too far west; it would seem to be a most dangerous thing to do in a heavily defended area. So the conclusion that I have come to is that there was either a strong headwind or a strong tailwind (I’ve assumed only east-west errors) and that JB221 had misjudged the turning points (and the target) and was off course. This isn’t so difficult to believe as returning crews report 10/10 cloud over the target and the only electronic navigational aid used was probably H2S radar.

Obviously all this is just supposition on my part

Leg 01 – RAF Bourn to Turning Point 1 (50.2000N/1.3000E) – 151 miles [00:30:00]
Leg 02a – Turning Point 1 to Turning Point 2a (50.1500N/7.7717E) – 286 miles
Leg 03a – Turning Point 2a to Target A (50.1030N/8.4027E) – 28 miles
Leg 04a – Target A to Turning Point 3a (50.0000N/8.7376E) – 17 miles
Leg 05a – Turning Point 3a to Crash Modautal (49.7359N/8.7376E) – 18 miles {02:45:00}

Leg 02a Map

Leg 03a Map

Leg 04a Map

Leg 05a Map

Where did JB221 come down? I’ve tried to locate the place Brandau but it isn’t obvious where it is; has it been renamed Modautal?

It is interesting that you say that something doesn’t add-up with the von Bonin victories as last night I was trying to figure out a possible explanation for JB221 being where it was and at the time that it was there.

My next step was going to be plotting of von Bonin victories as a guide to where the bomber stream was and when it was there.

I noticed some things that make no sense in reference to von Bonin’s three victories that night. If his first kill was at Wascheid, near Pruem, at 0220 hours, which is in the Eifel region of Northrhein Westphalia, then I don’t think he could have made it to his second kill at 0240 S.E. of Darmstadt, which I still have not figured out which aircraft that was supposed to have been. Now if he did indead score the 0240 kill S.E. of Darmstadt, then the 0243 shoot-down of JB221 could have happened as stated. I then also believe that the crew of JB221 saw von Bonin shoot down the other aircraft (Halifax) and might have changed course because of that. In order for von Bonin to have scored twice in three minutes, the two bombers must have been in close proximity of each other and von Bonin’s radar operator (or ground station operator) must have had an immediate vector for JB221 after shooting down the Halifax.
Also of interest is that a well known website, which we are not allowed to mention, or refer to in here has von Bonin shooting down 76 Sqdn. Halifax LK687, 15km N.W. of Wuerzburg (no time mentioned). So either he scored four times that night, or the Pruem one was not von Bonin, or something else is incorrect. To many missing pieces in this puzzle, arggg. Danny

Thanks everyone for your insights and input. I originally asked the question because the infomation on the card I have didn’t make sense and thanks to your help the actual route was discovered. Like Creaking Door my husband plotted out the route last night and they were certainly slightly off route for whatever reason.

I just looked at a book I have and I can tell you that Von Bonnin shot down a Halifax at N Prum at 02.20, then a second Halifax at S.E. Darmstadt at 02.42 before shooting down my uncle’s lancaster 3 minutes later at 12km S Darmstadt.

Von Bonnin was flying west to east and perhaps the lancaster just happened to be there at the wrong time unfortunately. As Danny says hopefully his records will reveal something of the truth.

Best wishes
Linda.

Thanks for that information.

Yes, ‘from the north’ seems to support the theory that JB221 was on Leg 05 (heading due south) but the fact that the crash site was close to where the combat took place (although I imagine distances can be deceptive under these circumstances) would seem to support the theory that JB221 was a little off route or was cutting a corner to make up time. I’ll have to look up the difference between local and route times.

JB221 was shot down at 0242 hours local time by Eckhardt-Wilhelm von Bonin, Commander of II./NJG1. JB221 was one of three bombers von bonin shot down that night.
I assume JB221 was either enroute from leg 4 to 5, or 5 to 6. According to eyewitness statements she came from the north, so I am leaning more from 4 to 5. Most likely the crew either cut that leg short and turned south early, or they knew they were being stalked.
It seems she was hit at around 4000 meters altitude and then went down rapidly, as the eyewitness stated he saw the tracer rounds, then an explosion in the sky and then the aircraft impacted soon thereafter.
Hopefully insite into von Bonin’s combat log (which should happen soon) should clear this up for good. Danny

The Australian National Archives has a copy of Sinden’s casualty file, though it’s not been digitised. These *sometimes* have statements from local residents re: time, though not always.

www.naa.gov.au

Search on JB221 seems to bring it up.

Below is a copy of the squadron’s ORB for that operation.

Thanks for that excellent information.

I’ve been looking at some of the timings for the route flown on the night of 25/26 November 1943 and have added them to the route information in the post above; firstly the average time to fly each leg (in round brackets), followed by the actual time [in square brackets] that an aircraft taking-off at 00:30:00 hours (such as Lancaster JB221) would complete each leg.

I’ve used the take-off and landing times for the 97 Squadron aircraft to get an average speed (worked out at 189 mph) for the whole route (1076 miles!) and I’ve ignored the two fastest and two slowest aircraft. Obviously this calculation is only going to be valid if the aircraft in question actually followed the route (wouldn’t Pathfinders be tempted to cut the last legs and fly straight home?) and didn’t get too lost; also I’ve had to ignore the wind conditions which will put some of the timings out (but should average out so long as the winds didn’t change too much).

There also seems to be an error with the take-off time of JB353; did it really take-off an hour after everybody else but land at about the same time (unless it ‘cut’ large chunks of route)? I’ve assumed JB353 actually took-off at 00:35 hours.

So in answer to the original post, Lancaster JB221 was brought-down about 12 miles to the west of Leg 05 (which heads due south) so presumably had already bombed and was attempting to follow the route home. From the reports of 97 Squadron aircraft, visibility over the target was not good and many aircraft bombed using ‘Y’ equipment (presumably H2S radar) so it would be easy to understand if JB221 was off-track, however JB221 wasn’t necessarily off-track and there could be many other explanations for the eventual crash-site.

Is the time of the crash of Lancaster JB221 known?

[I’m the only one on the forum; first time that has happened to me! :(]

Both aircraft were on ops to Frankfurt and here is the planned route…

Thank you for that fantastic post…..I’ve just had the most fun for an hour plotting this route on Google Maps.

I really must learn more about air navigation!

Leg 01 – RAF Bourn to Turning Point 1 (50.2000N/1.3000E) – 151 miles (00:47:53) [01:17:53]
Leg 02 – Turning Point 1 to Turning Point 2 (50.1500N/8.0000E) – 296 miles (01:33:47) [02:51:40]
Leg 03 – Turning Point 2 to Frankfurt (50.1030N/8.6533E) – 29 miles (00:09:11) [03:00:51]
Leg 04 – Frankfurt to Turning Point 3 (50.0000N/9.0000E) – 17 miles (00:05:24) [03:06:15]
Leg 05 – Turning Point 3 to Turning Point 4 (49.4500N/9.0000E) – 38 miles (00:12:04) [03:18:19]
Leg 06 – Turning Point 4 to Turning Point 1 (50.2000N/1.3000E) – 347 miles (01:49:59) [05:08:18]
Leg 07 – Turning Point 1 to Beachy Head (50.7380N/0.2610E) – 59 miles (00:18:43) [05:27:01]
Leg 08 – Beachy Head to Reading (51.4535N/-0.9630E) – 73 miles (00:23:10) [05:50:11]
Leg 09 – Reading to RAF Bourn (52.2160N/-0.0400E) – 66 miles (00:20:56) [06:11:07]

Leg 01 Map

Leg 02 Map

Leg 03 Map

Leg 04 Map

Leg 05 Map

Leg 06 Map

Leg 07 Map

Leg 08 Map

Leg 09 Map

Off-topic alert:rolleyes:
I have a “Captains of Aircraft” map base-dated 1944 with a pencil route for a raid on the Rhein Docks at Dusseldorf. It show as all the turning points for outward and return, would it be easy to use this information to find out the specific operation?

Linda,
I think the card you referred to is the Loss Card for this aircraft. These cards were raised for every aircraft that failed to return and were probably compiled at the Air Ministry, rather than at Group or Squadron level. The reference to “SEE” was merely to save the clerks filling in every detail, especially when they were recorded elsewhere on another Loss Card. Both aircraft were on ops to Frankfurt and here is the planned route;

5020N/0130E – 5015N/0800E – Frankfurt – 5000N/0900E – 4945N/0900E –
5020N/0130E – Beachy Head – Reading – Base.

Regards, Doug.

Durrrrr! :confused:

Moggy,
You probably meant to say ANTI-clockwise, didn´t you?:confused:

SEE is not a compass direction.

Clockwise from South (180 degrees) they run

South S
South South East SSE
South East SE
East South East ESE
East E

Moggy

Yes, I was just looking that up. These were both Pathfinder squadrons; is it possible that the administration of these two squadrons were handled in the same office?