Lancaster puzzle images

Thats not a model?

Post-war ‘dambusters’

The third shot seems to be at an airshow, is not a model, despite the wire which is probably the public address. Could this be a Dambuster film Lancaster?

Sorry to resurrect, but to put the thread to bed this ‘Dam Busters’ Lancaster VII is seen at Bagington air show in June 1954, the picture matches one of two taken by RA Scholefield http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=NX671
It’s masquarading as ‘ED932 AJ-G’, however I rather suspect its real identity is NX679 and not NX671.

Is it just my eyesight or do I detect some faded/overpainted coded on the fuselage of the Lanc ‘C’ in front of and ‘A’ behind roundel and then towards the tail ‘MP’ or ‘NP’?:confused:

Tom

AF-C on the port side and & C-AF on the starboard side.

Apparently ‘Australian Flying Corps’ and ‘Citizen Air Force’ respectively.

Mark

Camouflaged Lanc and silver Mossie

Is it just my eyesight or do I detect some faded/overpainted coded on the fuselage of the Lanc ‘C’ in front of and ‘A’ behind roundel and then towards the tail ‘MP’ or ‘NP’?:confused:

Regarding the other Lancs:-

As the crews are driven out to the dispersals, you get a fairly good view of RT686 as AJ-M. It appears to have a similar patch/stain/widget, but also clearly has two sets of stencilled instructions, to either side of it. These are not apparent in your photo.

Later on, as the first wave taxies out, they pass another Lanc from a later wave. This is clearly positioned on a different dispersal as there are huts in the background, not apparent in the first sequence. The Lanc appears to be RT686, as the two stencils are clearly visible. However you cannot see any codes or serial. My guess is they re-positioned her after the first scenes were filmed. See photo marked “C”.

Here’s a view (photo “A”) of what is supposed to be the start up sequence for AJ-G. Although there are errors in the sequence which suggests there were at least two seperate “takes”, if you accept that the filming was done around NX679, then here is a clearer view of the stain/patch that JDK pointed out yesterday. Sort of a maple leaf shape. It appears to be identical to the one in your photo.

Now! Interestingly, later in the same sequence, an airman removes the chocks, giving a clear view of the rear fuselage of what is supposed to be AJ-G. (photo “B”). Although my snap isn’t brilliant, it’s clear in the screen that the serial has been disfigured, or eroded. It looks sort of like that on your photo. This re-inforces my opinion that the sequence of Gibson’s start up in AJ-G was filmed on two seperate occasions, since earlier in the scene, as they are about to enter the aeroplane, the serial ED932 is clearly visible.

It might just bear out my earlier thought about the flying scenes having quickly eroded the temporary markings?

As for the other scenes, well you do not get any view of what can be safely said to be NX673 as AJ-P. Most scenes involve crews entering at the starboard rear door (serials visible), or in the pilot’s seat, hence port nose view, and serials not visible.

I’m not too sure there are many other clues to be gleaned from the film. I saw some out-takes once, perhaps they hold more clues, or else the “book of the film”?

Holdens..

I,m just impressed that an Aussie car gets recognized on here .Cheers Firebird.I had an FB Holden Ute in my younger days which was the model before the EK.Difference was mainly the main bar of the Grill.The FB had a plain chrome bar whereas the EK had an insert in the middle showing the GMH Lion motiff.Also the EK had electric windscreen wipers as the earlier FB and previous models had vacuum.Great till you went up a hill :rolleyes: .
Cheers Mark 12 for the fascinating Pics.The Dambuster Lanc looks divine:D .

PA474 is also fitted with Lincoln type rudders. These aircraft were generally constructed with these rudders, rather than retro-fitted.

The Lincoln rudder added extra area to the trim tabs, which would improve the ability of the pilot to keep the aircraft trimmed straight with engines out, etc, and also improve the rudder response.

Thanks Eddie, that explains it. Bex

No.

NX782 was marked as ZN-G of 106 Sqn. and appears early in the film, then I believe it is the non-converted Lancaster seen flying low over the Howden Reservoir, dropping practice bombs (not Upkeeps) on a water target. Much later on in the film, it must be the fourth Lanc, in the distance, when the crews start arriving at the dispersals.

NX673 played AJ-P, but retained it’s original serial.

RT686 played AJ-M, ditto.

NX679 played AJ-G and was marked ED932.

All these appear to have had the Lincoln rudders, and light painted spinners, so no easy clues.

I’m puzzled as to why we cannot see a serial on the Lanc in your picture. The “other two” Lancs retained their original serials, and these were painted quite light (light grey?) and so should stand out on the picture. NX679, however, was painted as ED932. I wonder if this was done by overpainting it’s true serial with a temporary black finish, then the false serial applied in brick red, the intention being that it would easily revert to NX679 after filming ended. If this photo was taken around that point, then maybe the temporary paint had faded/flaked/been eroded by weather, but not enough to reveal the original serial?

And another thing I’ve noticed.

Look at the still of Gibson and his crew arriving at ED932, played by NX679. There is a dark mark, just below the cockpit. I cannot work out what this is. Is it some kind of (oil?) stain, or has the paintwork been touched up, or has some previous marking been over-painted? Or is it actually a “widget”, maybe some kind of shroud over the navigator’s drift recorder (although I’ve never seen one before)?

Next, compare it with your photo. There seems to be a similar mark on it.

If it’s a random stain, I would suggest this is the same aircraft (NX679), but if something has been over-painted, or it is a widget, then I suppose it could be any of them, as they could all have been modded in the same way.

(The attached pictures aren’t of the best quality, but if you dabble with Mark’s photo in Paintshop or whatever, you’ll see the mark I’m referring to quite clearly).

Step up the next theorist!

682al,

This looks pretty conclusive to me and ‘beyond reasonable doubt’.

Certainly with the BoB Spitfires with identical engineering, it is the camouflaging and artificial distressing variations comparison against the ever growing data base that confirms the true RAF serial ID.

To make doubly sure, may I ask if there are any starboard side images of the other film Lancasters to confirm that they do not have the same smudges, lack of serial, etc?

Mark

PS. In 1954 56 different RAF Stations had ‘At Home’ displays on Sat 17th Sept – But unfortuately I do not have a list of this 56!!!

56…………….:eek:

And 50 years later it’s, err……….erm……….1
Maybe 2 if you include the Wadders show…..:confused:

🙁 🙁

As an aside, I seem to remember from somwhere, that the RAF charged the film company £130/hr for operating the Lancs during filming.

Amongst my collection of Lancaster drawings, H889 Sht 1 shows the later type rudder, and is labelled as applying to types:
Lancaster Mk.I, III, VI and X, Lincoln Mk. I, II, XV and 30, and…. Avro York (emphasis for those who know ;))

PA474 is also fitted with Lincoln type rudders. These aircraft were generally constructed with these rudders, rather than retro-fitted.

The Lincoln rudder added extra area to the trim tabs, which would improve the ability of the pilot to keep the aircraft trimmed straight with engines out, etc, and also improve the rudder response.

The later Lancs were built with an increase in trim tab, and thus a squared off rudder. The Lincoln design carried this on. Curiously, the Shackleton did not….

Afternoon all, quick question for you all. Why fit these Lancasters with rudders from Lincolns? Bex

PA474 is also fitted with Lincoln type rudders. These aircraft were generally constructed with these rudders, rather than retro-fitted.

The Lincoln rudder added extra area to the trim tabs, which would improve the ability of the pilot to keep the aircraft trimmed straight with engines out, etc, and also improve the rudder response.

The 1956 Farnborough ‘Scramble’ listing:-

NX679 AJ-G LANCASTER B7 Engineless. ED932 pasted on side.Used in Dambusters Film.

I spotted that too. Could it have been taken by one on the Farnborough staff on its arrival? Its not listed as displaying the year before.

martin

The 1956 Farnborough ‘Scramble’ listing:-

NX679 AJ-G LANCASTER B7 Engineless. ED932 pasted on side.Used in Dambusters Film.

PS. In 1954 56 different RAF Stations had ‘At Home’ displays on Sat 17th Sept – But unfortuately I do not have a list of this 56!!!

Rudders

Afternoon all, quick question for you all. Why fit these Lancasters with rudders from Lincolns? Bex

Pretty sure it was filmed in 1954.

RAF Hemswell was used for filming IIRC.

It was

http://www.continuitycorner.com/Dfilm/00028.htm

“181 The main airfield used for filming was RAF Hemswell in Lincolnshire, a real WW2 Bomber Command base. Hemswell was still operational, with Lincoln bombers, when the movie was made in 1954 with the Hemswell scenes being shot from April to September.”

Note: September.. which would mean that aircraft could still be in its ‘Dambusters state’

Now we need to discover if RAF Hemswell or even Scampton nearby had a At Home in 1954.. I Know that in 1957 -Hemswell had an At Home

Just a thought.. Where was the Dam Busters filmed ? Scampton? and what date.. I wonder if there was a RAF “At Home” display (usually around 15th Sept) in 1954 or 1955 and they used one of the aircraft one the base at the At Home display

Pretty sure it was filmed in 1954.

RAF Hemswell was used for filming IIRC.

Just a thought.. Where was the Dam Busters filmed ? Scampton? and what date.. I wonder if there was a RAF “At Home” display (usually around 15th Sept) in 1954 or 1955 and they used one of the aircraft one the base at the At Home display

Of course it will be labelled RAF @ Home now 😉

As film released in 1955 I would assume it would be 1954..