Hello All;
First, if this is too off-topic, please feel free to say so. It does have a large element of historical aviation embedded in the story.
Here we go. My grand father, born in Liverpool, died in 1994 (approx). He was born in 1896, possibly 1898, so he would have been 14 or 16 when the Titanic sank. Although he did work with White Star Lines, later Cunard as a naval architect, we won’t blame him for the Titanic (mild humour). He was too young.
He joined up with a flying corps during WW I. He had at least 1 crash on a beach, where his pilot died and he literally walked away with a nasty gash on his forehead (easily visible in his later life, I remember it). I don’t know what type of aircraft, but he was the observer, manning the rear-facing machine gun. My father, who’s still alive, claims he walked away as the sole survivor from 2 such crashes, but I have no real details on this.
All of the previous stuff is build up to identifying the luckiest man on earth, IF all of this has actual basis in fact.
Later, his squadron was to ship from Great Britain to France to be based there. He came down with appendicitis, was hospitalized, where he underwent his operation. Supposedly the ship carrying his mates, plus many others, was hit by a torpedo, sinking with all hands. My father, and I think, my grandfather recounted that set of details often. When you look at it, it seems too fantastic to be entirely true. Naturally, I mean “fantastic” in the old British sense, not the current sense of the word.
Here’s the question; is there anywhere I could start searching to authenticate any of this? Either approach this from the direction of Flying corps records, or some data base of troop ships that had been sunk. I just have a desire now to see if this could be true. My 14 year old son, having recently heard all of this from my father, is asking too. This is sort of like a genealogy search, but with ties to his military flying days.
Thank you for any help you may lend, Tom Kay.
By: Tony Hill - 12th November 2016 at 06:35
I could not have put that better myself. Except that for g.o.o.g.l.e also insert w.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a.
I’d stick to Great War Forum: it’s a rare thing these days: a place of calm and knowledge.
🙂 🙂 🙂
By: Sabrejet - 12th November 2016 at 04:39
No problems Tom and thanks,
I would add that if the Great War Forum draws a blank, you could try “The Aerodrome” site. Sadly it is full of semi abusive 12 year olds these days who go on endlessly about “Kills” instead of “Victories”; “planes” instead of “aeroplanes” ; “AAA” instead of “Archie” and “Fighters” instead of “Scouts” and have a complete library consisting of 6 letters (g.o.o.g.l.e). But there are still some of the old crowd kicking around, some of them even less affected by dementia than I 🙂 🙂 🙂
Best regards
Darryl
I could not have put that better myself. Except that for g.o.o.g.l.e also insert w.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a.
I’d stick to Great War Forum: it’s a rare thing these days: a place of calm and knowledge.
By: Tony Hill - 12th November 2016 at 02:56
No problems Tom and thanks,
I would add that if the Great War Forum draws a blank, you could try “The Aerodrome” site. Sadly it is full of semi abusive 12 year olds these days who go on endlessly about “Kills” instead of “Victories”; “planes” instead of “aeroplanes” ; “AAA” instead of “Archie” and “Fighters” instead of “Scouts” and have a complete library consisting of 6 letters (g.o.o.g.l.e). But there are still some of the old crowd kicking around, some of them even less affected by dementia than I 🙂 🙂 🙂
Best regards
Darryl
By: Lyffe - 11th November 2016 at 15:52
Tom,
I suggest you take your query up with the Great War Forum. I’m sure Mick (Davis I think), who is extremely knowledgeable about aircraft of the era, would be able to help.
Brian
By: Tom Kay - 11th November 2016 at 14:32
Darryl, Sabrejet, both of you have been quite helpful, so no more self-doubt ! I wouldn’t have known about any of the links, or archives that you have pointed out.
Thanks a bunch. Tom.
By: Tony Hill - 11th November 2016 at 03:00
Tom,
yes, it’s darryl…”Tony Hill” is a tribute.
I think SabreJet has it right…the accident must have been post 11th November 1918. The only records I have for after that time are limited to deaths due to factors preceding that date.
Sorry, but in the wash up, I’m of no use at all!
Darryl
By: Sabrejet - 10th November 2016 at 16:53
Well I’ve looked at 1(O)SAG accidents from formation in April 1918 until 11th November and though there are a number of fatalities, in every aircraft case there are either a pair of deaths or both crew accounted for.
So I can only assume that the accident your grandfather described must have occurred sometime between 11th November 1918 and February 1919.
By: Tom Kay - 10th November 2016 at 14:51
SabreJet, Tony (or is it Darryl?), you guys are awesome. Thanks for this early digging. It appears that some of the details that you have found are lining up reasonably well with my father’s recollections. He mentioned that the appendicitis came first, he thinks 1915 or early 1916. He told me that the Manchester Regiment troops were literally formed into ranks on the dock when he became incapacitated enough that they had to take him away to the hospital. Your service number, 125931 also aligns with what my dad wrote to me yesterday, so you’ve got the right TC Kay.
Thanks again, Tom.
By: Sabrejet - 10th November 2016 at 13:27
Absolutely SJ
– I only mentioned it in passing because he did not appear to have an ‘official’ aircrew category but that did not necessarily mean he did not fly quite regularly as a ‘gunner’,the war might have ended before he had a chance of qualifying/remustering.
Sometimes if a tradesman was keen and good at his job – it was difficult to remuster to aircrew and much might depend on ones immediate ‘bosses’ attitudes etc.
Ahh them were the days… 🙂
By: Tony Hill - 10th November 2016 at 13:06
I have been back through the 9 weeks previous to the date mentioned, with no luck. More tomorrow night..the old eyes are no longer built for it!
I wonder if he knew of 2Lt W F J Prince of 1SAG, who was accidentally shot whilst bathing in the danger area of the firing range!! 30.5.18… just caught my eye …
By: bazv - 10th November 2016 at 12:42
Absolutely SJ
– I only mentioned it in passing because he did not appear to have an ‘official’ aircrew category but that did not necessarily mean he did not fly quite regularly as a ‘gunner’,the war might have ended before he had a chance of qualifying/remustering.
Sometimes if a tradesman was keen and good at his job – it was difficult to remuster to aircrew and much might depend on ones immediate ‘bosses’ attitudes etc.
By: Sabrejet - 10th November 2016 at 12:20
Hi Tom
He would not have needed to be an observer to fly with the RFC/RAF – between 1918 and 1939 the air gunner position was mostly fulfilled by volunteer ground tradesmen,the RFC/RAF were very pragmatic about aircrew categories – also the 2 seater aircraft designed with pilot in the front cockpit would (mostly) need ballast in the rear cockpit anyway to retain a reasonable CofG (centre of gravity) and self loading ballast is much easier than lifting (say) 70 pounds of ballast into the rear cockpit : ).
Bazv: quite correct! However the reverse of the AIR 79 card is usually annotated ‘air gunner’ in the case of these airmen. It’s not in the case of TC Kay. Plus of course he was not serving on an active squadron and so I strongly suspect he was in the ‘mobile ballast’ category.
By: bazv - 10th November 2016 at 10:54
Hi Tom
He would not have needed to be an observer to fly with the RFC/RAF – between 1918 and 1939 the air gunner position was mostly fulfilled by volunteer ground tradesmen,the RFC/RAF were very pragmatic about aircrew categories – also the 2 seater aircraft designed with pilot in the front cockpit would (mostly) need ballast in the rear cockpit anyway to retain a reasonable CofG (centre of gravity) and self loading ballast is much easier than lifting (say) 70 pounds of ballast into the rear cockpit : ).
By: Tony Hill - 10th November 2016 at 10:03
Yeah, understood…but better than ” somewhere between 1914 and 1918 🙂
By: Sabrejet - 10th November 2016 at 09:01
I think 23rd July would indicate a return to ‘A1G1Z1’ rather than an accident/incident. So I think it only would serve as an indicator that the accident happened before that date.
Again that’s a bit of supposition and I think his Casualty Form would give the exact date of infirmity.
By: Tony Hill - 10th November 2016 at 06:49
I will have lists of accidents that involved at least one fatality. IF the pilot was killed, the incident will be in there. It MAY show him as the observer (injured) or may not. The date, if it is 23rd July 1918, will give a starting point as well,
More tomorrow….
D
By: Sabrejet - 10th November 2016 at 05:55
Tom,
Those details came from his AIR 79 record, which is available from the National Archives (exact file number is AIR 79/1129/125931). It’s also available from FindMy Past.
It’s only one double-sided sheet, so maybe if I transcribe the main bits it will give you a start:
Enlisted in the Army 19th December 1916, aged 19 years and 6 months (length of engagement: duration of war, civilian occupation: apprentice engineer). He gave his next of kin as Mary Kay (mother) Hulsden House, Rockville St, Birkenhead. He was 5ft 5 3/4 inches tall, with a 29 1/2-inch chest and a mole on his left cheek.
Entered RFC 29th January 1918 with service no. 125931 (transferred to RAF on 1st April 1918) as rank 2/AM (Air Mechanic, 2nd class) in trade of Fitter (Gen).
Posted to 3 School of Aerial Gunnery at New Romney (circa January 1918) – correct title is No.3 (Aux) School of Aerial Gunnery – his record just says ‘3SAG’.
1st April 1918 – rank now AM/3 (Air Mechanic, 3nd class) – creation of RAF/rank structure changed.
No.3 SAG disbanded 9th March 1918 and absorbed into No.1 (Observers) School of Aerial Gunnery at Hythe/New Romney. His record doesn’t show the move until 4th April 1918 (‘1SAG’ on his record).
Recollection of a crash on a beach would agree with his entire RFC/RAF service spent at Hythe/New Romney.
Discharged at Prees Heath Dispersal Centre 25th January 1919, to Class G Reserve on 23rd February. No.1 SAG disbanded on 14th February, so his discharge seems to be concurrent with that.
There is an annotation that his medical category changed to ‘A’ on 23rd July 1918 at 1 SAG, and this may relate to the incident you mentioned.
Side B only states that his RFC/RAF trade was Fitter (General).
These Schools would not have transferred overseas and I think it more likely that if true, his story of a unit moving to France related to his army service pre-1918.
No evidence that I can find regarding any accident, though there were a number related to No.1 & No.3 SAG. I would try the RAF Museum for his Casualty Form and see if it exists: if it does, it will give a date for any medical issues. People often assume that ‘Casualty Form’ means that an individual died or was injured, but that was not their purpose.
By: Tom Kay - 10th November 2016 at 02:00
Sabrejet;
I replied once, and hit the submit button, but it disappeared into the ether. If my first reply happens to show up, it looked a lot like the following;
Thanks for the contacts, ideas, and as I see in your second post, doing what appears to be some digging on your own. So it was that easy to at least find records of him and at least part of his service record? Any mention of his illness, or what ship he was to board?
Thanks, Tom.
By: Sabrejet - 9th November 2016 at 19:43
According to his record he was a Fitter (General), and not an observer or officer. His airman’s record shows him with 3 School of Air Gunnery and 1 School of Air Gunnery from 4th April 1918 to end of service.
No evidence of active squadron service but it seems likely that he’d have flown at the SAG’s and probably that’s where he received his injury. Joined the RFC in January 1918 as a 2/AM (Airman 2nd Class), then 3/AM on creation of the RAF.
Discharged at Prees Heath Dispersal Centre in January 1919 by the look of it.
Would need to look it up, but Schools of Air Gunnery were at Ayr, Turnberry, Markse, Hythe etc.
By: Sabrejet - 9th November 2016 at 19:38
Tom,
Download his record card and start a wonderful journey! I love this stuff since it can take you to locations he flew from, to the National Archives, to the RAF Museum and elsewhere!
If he was rear-facing then likely an RE.8 or F.2b Observer (BE.2 etc had the gunner in the front), but get his AIR 76 service record and that will give you a starting point. Also RAF Museum for his Casualty Form. Being an Observer, he may not have as complete an AIR 76 record as a pilot would, but his Casualty Form will fill in any gaps.
Then it’s on to the squadron records (National Archives), Henshaw’s bible (see above) and onwards.
If in doubt, let us have his name and we’ll give it a go.
Good luck.
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November 9, 2016 at 4:02 pm