Last Dambuster TV programme

I’ve just watched it on the re-run,and I have to admit,that I had tears in my eyes,watching George as he visited the various sites that were attacked,and the people that survived.Deeply moving.

I can’t add anymore as to what’s been said already,just to say I’m pleased I wasn’t around at the time,to witness what went on.

Superb programme,and tastefully done.

Ken.

I thoroughly enjoyed the program, found it very humbling to hear the thoughts of George Johnsonn.

I did fill with pride when he pushed the pylon that claimed one of his Sqn’s aircraft, saying “You bitch!” as he did so.

I was very happy with the way it was made, telling the story from his point of view in his words, without someone constantly asking interview like questions.

I was also humbled by the way he changed through the program after visiting the dams and meeting the German survivors and the people who maintained the memorial at the crash site. They greeted each other like long lost friends or loved ones, not like the enemies they were some 65 years ago.
Well done Channel 5, more programs like this please!

Yes, it was a superb programme. And George clearly still has a useful mind for his age.
Your comment on the fact that they greeted each other as if old friends is probably because the only hatred was for the SS and the Nazi regime. Neither side actually hated each other but just “Did the job”. Today’s war has a deep rooted detestation for each others cultures and beliefs. In 60 years time we will not be welcoming the Taliban with open arms.

I couldn’t help feel that in a way it was a bit cruel, to confront an old man with the carnage that was caused (ironically not by him), what harm is there in him going to his grave, with the certainty that what he did was right.

Its all well and good looking at actions of 60+ years ago, with modern day morals and political correctness, but never forget, they were dark days, and our modern day PC owes everthing, to the sacrifices men made, to defend the right of free speach, and freedom itself.

I enjoyed the programme very much. It was nice that so much of it was given over to the views of those who were there but I was a little saddened how the views of George Johnson were changed by his meetings with former enemies and his visits to the various sites.

The documentary had the modern ‘light’ feel about it but that is the reality of time and money pressures I’m sure. If those are the conditions under which these documentaries get made it, is better that they are made than way than not made at all.

The attitude of the German contributors was most interesting also, particularly the German couple who tended the memorial at the crash site of that Lancaster (Astell’s aircraft?) lost on the Dams Raid.

The ‘recently discovered’ photo of damage to the Sorpe Dam was a bit strange as it looked like a huge crater in the earth at the back of the dam and the only other post-raid photo I’ve seen just showed evidence of water being ‘washed’ over the dam by the mine exploding in the water.

As for attacking the Sorpe later in the war with a Tallboy wasn’t this done by number 9 Squadron on 15th October 1944?

Possibly the ‘recently discovered’ photo shows damage from this raid?

In a book called ‘Bombs Away’ there is an aerial photo of the damage done to the Sorpe by 9 Sqn, at least 5 Tallboy’s of the 12 dropped hit the dam, 3 on the airside earth bank, and two hits on the crest, one of them a direct hit on the roadway slap bang in the middle of the dam’s length. (there also looks like the edge of a crater on the waterline of the water face of the dam) You’re most likely correct in your guess that the photo shown of the damaged Sorpe is from the second raid. At least one of the Tallboys didn’t go off and was found at the foot of the dam and defused in 1959. A good program, enjoyed it.

Sorpe Dam

I saw a programme some years ago about the Sorpe Dam, because it was basically an earth bank wider at the base, it is now considered the bombs would not have been able to breach it had they all been dropped, the Mohne Dam was a concrete construction and more brittle.

The Air Staff produced a report in April 1943- “Economic & Moral Consequences of the Destruction of German Dams”. Here’s a few extracts from the Economic Effects;
“The destruction of this dam (Mohne) would not necessarily have any large or immediate effect on the supply of industrial & household water in the Ruhr region”.
“The Sorpe dam is essentially complementary to the Mohne dam & its simultaneous or subsequent destruction would reinforce the effects of the destruction of the Mohne dam……For this reason the destruction of both dams would be worth much more than twice the destruction of one & it is most strongly urged, if operational possibilities hold out any reasonable prospect of success, that an attack on the Mohne dam be accompanied, or followed as soon as possible, by an attack on the Sorpe dam”.

Here I suggest is the reason for using Upkeep in a manner for which it was not designed. See: After the Battle book – “The Dams Raid – Through the Lens” from which I have quoted.

I’ve just found out that it is to be repeated on Channel 5 on Sat eve at 18.15 to 19.05.
I think I’ll put a seperate HU out for people who may not come back to this thread.

Roger Smith.

I thoroughly enjoyed the program, found it very humbling to hear the thoughts of George Johnsonn.

I did fill with pride when he pushed the pylon that claimed one of his Sqn’s aircraft, saying “You bitch!” as he did so.

I was very happy with the way it was made, telling the story from his point of view in his words, without someone constantly asking interview like questions.

I was also humbled by the way he changed through the program after visiting the dams and meeting the German survivors and the people who maintained the memorial at the crash site. They greeted each other like long lost friends or loved ones, not like the enemies they were some 65 years ago.

Well done Channel 5, more programs like this please!

Using Upkeep on the Sorpe was always going to be a compromise, and not a very good one at that- poor planning there, I reckon.

Anyway, a good programme, spoilt only by the naff CG- here’s hoping it’s better in the movie remake!

I saw a programme some years ago about the Sorpe Dam, because it was basically an earth bank wider at the base, it is now considered the bombs would not have been able to breach it had they all been dropped, the Mohne Dam was a concrete construction and more brittle.

Interesting point about the ventral machine gun. I have a Keith Broomfield print signed by AVM Sir Arthur Harris and 16 of the original crews, which depicts AJ-G and it shows the ventral gun. Artistic licence perhaps?

How can you be saddened by his change of mind, isn’t that the best way to be, isn’t it a good thing that this lovely old boy is capable of thinking that way and won’t shuffle off this mortal coil full of hatred for his enemies of 60 years ago.

I couldn’t agree more. It is always fascinating to me to see the way that old enemies often have a common bond because of the, usually terrible, events that they lived through and that this bond seems to overcome any former animosity.

What I actually meant was that before meeting the German contributors and visiting (or revisiting) the sites of conflict he had been a staunch defender of the effects of the raid, the effect on wartime production in Germany, and the positive effect on British morale, and he felt that the raid was justified and that the many lives lost (on all sides) had not been lost in vain.

As the programme went on he seemed less sure that this had been the case…..and that in itself takes a different kind of bravery.

I enjoyed the programme very much. It was nice that so much of it was given over to the views of those who were there but I was a little saddened how the views of George Johnson were changed by his meetings with former enemies and his visits to the various sites

Isn’t time a healer and the future a moment for reflection on things past. How can you be saddened by his change of mind, isn’t that the best way to be, isn’t it a good thing that this lovely old boy is capable of thinking that way and won’t shuffle off this mortal coil full of hatred for his enemies of 60 years ago.
My old man fought some horrendously savage battles with the Germans, but did he hate them afterwards, no way and wer’e talking about the immediate aftermath here.
When I took him back to the 50th anniversary of D-Day, he was disgusted that the Germans weren’t represented in any shape or form, he made a point of walking through the Allied Cemeteries and paying his respects to the German dead that were inevitably tucked away in the corner.
Is this attitude unique amongst the old boys, I wouldn’t like to say, each one must have had his own experiences, some of them must have been very traumatic which they no doubt find it difficult to forget.
Lets appreciate those that can and respect them greatly for that.

One point arising from the programme. The claim was made that the ventral Vickers “K” gun was only fitted to this one particular Lancaster. I thought this gun was fitted to every “Upkeep” Lanc? The 1976 Tamiya kit of the Dambusters Lanc features this gun.

The ventral gun was fitted to the prototypes but not to the aircraft earmarked for the raid itself. ED825 only flew that night because of technical problems with another aircraft (Hence the crew’s delayed departure from Scampton). It was therefore the only Lancaster that flew during the mission to be fitted with the ventral gun.

I also enjoyed the programme and found the meetings between Johnson and the locals who were there at the time quite moving – especially the man who shot down one of the Lancasters that night, and the couple who maintain the memorial. The whole trip must have been very emotional for those involved.

I enjoyed the programme very much. It was nice that so much of it was given over to the views of those who were there but I was a little saddened how the views of George Johnson were changed by his meetings with former enemies and his visits to the various sites.

The documentary had the modern ‘light’ feel about it but that is the reality of time and money pressures I’m sure. If those are the conditions under which these documentaries get made it, is better that they are made than way than not made at all.

The attitude of the German contributors was most interesting also, particularly the German couple who tended the memorial at the crash site of that Lancaster (Astell’s aircraft?) lost on the Dams Raid.

The ‘recently discovered’ photo of damage to the Sorpe Dam was a bit strange as it looked like a huge crater in the earth at the back of the dam and the only other post-raid photo I’ve seen just showed evidence of water being ‘washed’ over the dam by the mine exploding in the water.

I don’t understand why 617 didn’t go back later in the war and finish the job with Tallboys or Grand Slams…

As for attacking the Sorpe later in the war with a Tallboy wasn’t this done by number 9 Squadron on 15th October 1944?

Possibly the ‘recently discovered’ photo shows damage from this raid?

Using Upkeep on the Sorpe was always going to be a compromise, and not a very good one at that- poor planning there, I reckon.

Anyway, a good programme, spoilt only by the naff CG- here’s hoping it’s better in the movie remake!

An excellent programme, and very moving at the end after he had met the locals. He was a fantastic character, a little frail but mentally very agile. He was obviously becoming more uncomfortable throughout the programme with the consequences of what they had achieved with regard to the deaths, not only amongst the local population but of the aircrew taking part. He didn’t show his emotions on the surface, but they were obviously bubbling away underneath.

It was interesting to see that his mission involved flying along the crest of the dam, the Upkeep being used in a conventional way, I couldn’t see the point of that, couldn’t it have bounced off the ground in any direction. I assume that had the other Lancasters arrived, that the same technique would have been used, it left me very puzzled, but what do I know.

Another question, when were the dams finally repaired, presumably as soon as possible, I don’t understand why 617 didn’t go back later in the war and finish the job with Tallboys or Grand Slams, out of pride if not for any other reason. It would have been a little safer to have used these earthquake inducing bombs dropped from a great height, obviously they were in short supply and needed for more pressing missions such as La Coupole and the Tirpitz, but I’m sure it would have affected the German morale no end.

One point arising from the programme. The claim was made that the ventral Vickers “K” gun was only fitted to this one particular Lancaster.

Colin

I was also a bit sceptical about this statement!!But i am sure somebody on here will be able to give us a definitive ‘definite maybe’ answer about it 😉
Other than that I enjoyed the programme,quite well made.

cheers baz

Hello,

As to any updates regarding the remake, the security in preventing leaks in regards to the real raid, is nothing compared to the lack of updates regarding filming of the remake!

Last I could find was this:

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=156153&command=displayContent&sourceNode=156136&contentPK=20639214&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

Cheers

633

One point arising from the programme. The claim was made that the ventral Vickers “K” gun was only fitted to this one particular Lancaster. I thought this gun was fitted to every “Upkeep” Lanc? The 1976 Tamiya kit of the Dambusters Lanc features this gun.

On a related issue – any news on the “Dambusters” remake ? I notice on IMDB that the film is now due to come out in 2010 not 2008. Has the filming been put back two years?

Colin

Agree with all that is said above.

I watched the first few moments cranky CGI and feared the worst, but the programme just got better and better after that.

Mr Johnson and all the Germans came over well, very well.

Moggy

I think they did quite well in not over doing it. It was certainly better than the last few such programmes I have seen.