last of the props

To back up Big Vern, ” Hi, Bro!”, the majority of the pilots on BBMF are the Stanevals of the other types flown from Coningsby. The Hurricane pilot this year will be the Jag Staneval. In any war, he would be flying Jags!

Right on Bro,

Forgot to say Hi to the twin Brother, new to the forum.

I have a book by Alfred Price called ‘Spitfire, The complete fighting history’ which has a chapter in it by AVM John Nicholls on this subject, who was in charge of the development squadron at the time.

The subject is also covered in The Griffon powered Spitifre Modellers Datafile.

Where did you get this info? I would like to read up on this, quite interesting!

I have a book by Alfred Price called ‘Spitfire, The complete fighting history’ which has a chapter in it by AVM John Nicholls on this subject, who was in charge of the development squadron at the time.
It features a very interesting photo of the Lightning and Spitfire together on the tarmac at Binbrook prior to their sortie.

Last RAF SQUADRON to operate a piston engined combat fighter type aircraft was the Air Fighting Development Squadron at Binbrook in 1963. The unit had an Airworthy Spitfire PRXIX as a gate guard, formally off the Historic Aircraft Flight (the unit that became BBMF in 1973 when the Lancaster was moved to Coltishall from Waddington). The Spitfire PS853 was recalled to flying status to take part in very Dissimilar Air Combat Tacitics trials against the unit’s Lightnings. The purpose of the trials being to see how the Lightning would deal with the Mustangs operated by Indonesia in the build up to the Confrontation. The Spitfire being the closest thing to the Mustang that the RAF could get their hands on.

For All Spitfire fans, the results of the trials were that the Spitfire gave as good as it got, the Firestreak AAM would not home on the Spitfire’s engine and in a turning fight the Spitfire was better than the Lightning.

Where did you get this info? I would like to read up on this, quite interesting!

The Hawk was not only used for local air defence, but in the MFF (Mixed Fighter Foce) role as well. This is where, for example, a pair of Hawks would formate on a Tornado F.3, or previously onto an F.4, and let the front-line fighter find any incoming raid and point the Hawks into an intercept position using their high manoeuvrability to get into a shooting position; primarily using the AIM-9L, but having thr gun as a back-up. In effect they were used as additional weapons launch pads.
They would be detached to any suitable airfield for remote operations in this role. For example a number of Hawks of 234(R) Sqn operated from the Newcastle Aero Club in Oct 1987.
The reason that the Valley Hawks were not converted to T.1A status was to save on the costs of servicing the weaponry wiring etc.

the valley hawks were converted to partial T1a status as far back as 1984/85, every time they went in the hangar for a biggish service (minor i assume) and the wings came off, the wiring was put in for the sidewinder, but no switch panels were fitted in the cockpit.

May 1956 for the Firefly AS6 with (18**) RNVR squadrons, Jan 1955 for the front line 800 FAA series squadrons.

Oops, forgot about the fighter bit in the original question.

Best wishes
Steve P

What about the Skyraider for the last FAA operational type? Seem to remember seeing photos of them during the Suez campaign.

Best wishes
Steve P

AEW Bird!!!

What about the Skyraider for the last FAA operational type? Seem to remember seeing photos of them during the Suez campaign.

Best wishes
Steve P

The Hawk was not only used for local air defence, but in the MFF (Mixed Fighter Foce) role as well. This is where, for example, a pair of Hawks would formate on a Tornado F.3, or previously onto an F.4, and let the front-line fighter find any incoming raid and point the Hawks into an intercept position using their high manoeuvrability to get into a shooting position; primarily using the AIM-9L, but having thr gun as a back-up. In effect they were used as additional weapons launch pads.
They would be detached to any suitable airfield for remote operations in this role. For example a number of Hawks of 234(R) Sqn operated from the Newcastle Aero Club in Oct 1987.
The reason that the Valley Hawks were not converted to T.1A status was to save on the costs of servicing the weaponry wiring etc.

Correction. Brigand out of service as a Front Line aircraft in 1953. So I’d say its the Hornet for the RAF. Sea Hornet was not in service with the Navy for very long (2 to 3 years max), Anti Sub Firefly, anybody?

Of course I should have realised the dates on your sig are way too late for the 188

I wish they were not, Farnborough was much more interesting in those days.

Of course, silly me. I’d forgotten about the 188 being powered by turbojets (albeit damned powerful ones for the period) Had I indulged in a little lateral thinking I might have remembered the Bloodhound. Of course I should have realised the dates on your sig are way too late for the 188

Of course, silly me. I’d forgotten about the 188 being powered by turbojets (albeit damned powerful ones for the period) Had I indulged in a little lateral thinking I might have remembered the Bloodhound.

Bigvern, does your sig refer to the Bristol 188 by any chance?

Afraid not, (the 188, which is one of my favourite aircraft was powered by DH Gyron Juniors, which are Turbojets). The sig however does refer to a Bristol product, which was the first operational kit that I worked on in the RAF. Twin Ramjet Powered Monoplane is the Air Publication (AP 118C –0201-1A) description of the configuration of the Bloodhound Mark 2 Surface to Air Missile.

4x20mm cannon? as cannon armament goes I don’t think that was bettered for weight of fire per second until the advent of the M61 Vulcan

there was a modification program on all the hawks stared in the early /mid 80’s to enable them to carry sidewinders.
the first ones modded were the brawdy/chivenor hawks.later on the valley hawks were done the next time the wings came off for servicing.
during a war the valley hawks were meant to form RAS’s (regional air squadrons) for point defence of airfields.

— Very off Topic here —

Yes, there was a modification programme, however, not the complete fleet was done, (I think the number was in the region of 70 to 90, the aircraft being from Brawdy, Chivenor and the Sparrows). The modified aircraft had fuselage wiring changes done as well and missile control panels fitted to both cockpits. The modified aircraft were re-designated T1A, The modifications for the smoke generation in the Sparrow’s hawks did not result in a different designation as far as I know. Valley only got the T1A’s with the draw down of Brawdy and the start of the Mirror Image training system in the early 1990’s. I was at Valley at the time and there were no grey hawks with plyons fitted based there when I arrived there in mid 1991, There were in late 1993, as I flew in a T1A of 234(R) Sqn, just before they were renumbered to 208(R) Sqn.
The Hawks with Sidewinders were used of local airfield defence, the last time I saw them do it was an exercise at Wattisham in early 1991, you would see a Hawk or two orbiting the airfield, all of a sudden they would shoot off in one direction. The next thing that you would hear was the Air raid warning go off.

— On Topic —

Bristol Brigand – Classed as bomber, but fitted with four 20mm cannon and a whole host of other ground attack nastiness. In service to 1957.

Bigvern, does your sig refer to the Bristol 188 by any chance?

I think you will find the Red Arrows Hawks can still be fitted with current in service weapons. The Unit’s Hawks were modified to carry AIM-9L Sidewinders in the late 1980’s for use as a point defence interceptors (as were a number of Hawks on the TWU’s). The unit also has enough pilots posted on its strength to make a viable operational unit. (They also have a very important ‘semi combat’ role and that is to help BAe SELL HAWKS!!!, which I would say they have done pretty well at) As for the BBMF, 20mm Hispano cannon and .303 Browning’s are definitely NOT in service weapons and have not been for a considerable number of years. Thus (much as I love to see the aircraft fly and will stop and look for the aircraft every time I hear a Merlin) I would say that the BBMF cannot realistically be called an operational fighter unit!

there was a modification program on all the hawks stared in the early /mid 80’s to enable them to carry sidewinders.
the first ones modded were the brawdy/chivenor hawks.later on the valley hawks were done the next time the wings came off for servicing.
during a war the valley hawks were meant to form RAS’s (regional air squadrons) for point defence of airfields.

the way i look at it…..in a real, real, major, big time emergancey the BBMFs hurris and spits could be uesd as operational aircraft…like i suppose the other warbirds still flying in the UK.. i know during WW2 a large number of cival registered aircraft where press ganged into military service.
what i ment though when i asked the question is when was the last FRONT LINE combat capable single or twined engined piston engined fighter or fighter bomber aircraft to serve with the RAF and FAA….i know the sea fury was used in the korean war….i think they even shot down a couple of mig-15s…WOW…… 🙂

RAF – Fighter designated Aircraft – DH Hornet – Last front line unit – 45 Squadron RAF stopped operating the type in May 1955.