Last night I was idly flicking some FlyPasts and skimmed through a special on the B17. It featured in particular the fantastic Thunderbird and inter alia discussed the fate of the various Love Field aircraft. All very interesting but it got me thinking (again – many, many apologies folks).
I distinctly remember perusing some book/s or other with photos of B17G’s operating in Europe in late ’44 and/or early ’45 without chin turrets. Point was IIRC that air superiority was by then such that the additional weight and drag of the chin turret was no longer warranted so B17s were being delivered and/or converted in the field to a cleaner nose configuration.
Raises a handful of questions for me …
1. Were late B17’s manufactured and delivered to the European Theatre without chin turrets?
2. Alternatively were all these examples conversions in the field?
3. And if the former, were many of the examples we now see with chin turrets (eg. Thunderbird) manufactured and delivered without them, and are therefore after the fact additions for the sake of displaying the well known wartime configuration?
4. Anyone got, or can post, or can post a link to, photos of operational G’s without chin turrets?
Many thanks in anticipation.
By: Arabella-Cox - 8th January 2006 at 00:39
IIRC Its also worth noting that many early G models did not have chin turrets
Rich
It’s more the other way around. It was actually many late B-17F’s that left the factory WITH a chin turret, despite being F models. Some had the cheek guns left off.
My model B-17G “Hang The Expense” serial 42-31035 is based on a Batch 1 a/c, which was only the 4th B-17G built. It was fitted with the chin turret but was delivered without any cheek guns. Through combat experience, the AAF refitted them as time allowed. If you look through the bombardiers nose glass, you will see that this B-17G-1-BO, does NOT have a port cheek gun. The Navigator told me that only the starboard one had been fitted by the time the plane was destroyed in a take off crash. You will also note the long flash guards on the barrels. He said that without them, the flash scorched and damaged the bombardiers viewing panel if the guns were fired in an upward direction.
Steve
PS Non-Bombardiers who released the bombs on the lead plane were known as Toggliers
By: LaurentB - 7th January 2006 at 21:26
From “Air Force Colours 1942-45” by Dana Bell, Squadron Signal Pubs.:
Laurent
By: Smith - 7th January 2006 at 06:14
Fascinating and thanks ShabbyAbbey. I note some sort of cover plate plainly visible and that the other 2 aircraft in the photo still have their turrets in place. Doesn’t really prove the argument (that they were no longer required) does it? Thanks for the photo – and Jim that’s the kind of pic I was looking for 😉
By: ShabbyAbbey - 7th January 2006 at 02:05
398th BG B-17G’s without chin turrets
Gnome,
Believe you were probably thinking of this photo reference from Roger Freeman’s ‘B-17 Fortress at War’. It’s a 398th B-17G on it’s 102nd mission. It is on page 86 of Roger’s book and also page 107 of Cliff Bishop’s book, ‘Fortresses over Nuthampstead’. Cliff’s book also has two other photos of 398th B-17G’s in formation (without chin turrets). These are on pages 139, 142 and 221.
If memory serves me right, Cliff mentioned that these weren’t so much ‘in the field mods.’, but were undertaken at 2 SAD.
By: James S. Peters - 7th January 2006 at 01:29
late war B-17Gs without chin turrets
We were operating from Italy, Grin.
The B-17s were at bases around Foggia,and the B-24s were down the leg and toe of Italy, mostly on the east coast of the Adriatic Sea.
The HQ of the 15th was at Bari, and HQ 5th Wing (B-17s) was at Foggia Main.
What kind of pics are you looking for ?
Jim 🙂
By: Smith - 7th January 2006 at 01:08
Hmmm … so my memory, and Roger Freeman’s reliable observations (thanks Dan J) is that some 8th AF B17’s did operate without chin (and ball) turrets in the closing months of the European war (Spring ’45) – but 15th AF retained full defensive armament (thanks James). Interesting. Still love to see some pics.
James, where were you guys in the 15th operating from?
By: James S. Peters - 7th January 2006 at 00:41
late war B-17G;s without chin turrets
An observation….I served in the 15th AF, and we did not remove any turrets, either chin or ball, and we kept the radio compartment guns.
I posted this thread to the armyairforces.com website, and the concensus of the B-24 units in the 15th was the same….the 15th AF did not remove any turrets..we kept them until the end.
On the longest mission of the 15th AF to the Daimler-Benz Tank Factory at
Berlin, on March 24,1945, there were several ME-262s shot down by the bomber’s gunners. I think there would have been losses if all the turrets had not been installed.
Jim
By: richb - 6th January 2006 at 11:12
IIRC Its also worth noting that many early G models did not have chin turrets
Im not aware of any having their chin removed late in war but they probably did as many were modified on base
Rich
By: Dan Johnson - 6th January 2006 at 08:46
94th Bomb Group was removing both the chin and ball turrets in the spring of 45. Photos in Freeman’s Mighty Eighth in Color show 17s in this configuration.
Dan
By: B-17man - 6th January 2006 at 08:02
B-17
From what I believe, All the B-17G were made under a contract and to a spec, the spec changed throughout the production line, hence the block numbers on the B-17s (e.g B-17G-105-VE)Model, Block number, Manufacturer).
All the planes left the factory as per the spec, but I believe some went to modification centres in the U.S, for minor work, But most of the mods were carried out at the B-17 bases in the U.K.
I have heard of the removal of the Ball turret, Having only one waist gunner, removing the bombardier and having the navigator dropping the bombs on the lead planes call,
The removal of the chin turret was probably carried out ‘in the field’ and would have to have been authorised by the station commander.
Only my views from my limited experience
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January 5, 2006 at 11:08 pm