Learning to fly advice

Just looking on site i noticed it’s got on there nppl course does this mean if i just do a ppl course im only allowed to fly in the uk.

Just to clarify, the NPPL is a recently introduced cut-down course.

It has lower hours requirement and low medical standards and is a little restrictive in what you can do. But it does enable the operators to advertise a lower ‘ticket’ price for a ‘licence’

R

Just a little update Rang school near me for test flight they said ring back in Jan as they fully booked i also got a cd off ebay that i reading throught thats teaching me alot its the ppl jaa for 2004-2005 🙂

Cabair are everywhere but in Kent, I get you must be nearest their base there so that means Rochester. Been there a couple of times flying with Steve Rodgers who has a share in an aircraft there.

Cabair runs a school there ans there was a another indy setup next door. I don’t kow if the latter still exists so you will have to check that out. Still with Cabair you can be guaranteed of paying at least £20/hr more than anyone else and they are known for not offering value for money.

Headcorn/Lashenden is just down the road. Being there’s a large Historic contingent on this forum, it would be remiss not to mention the Tiger Club. Do it in style! They also offer flying lessons and have the oldest Tiger Moth still flying (allegedly). There also seems to be a setup called Bateleur. They proably have something to do with the Tiger Club looking at their fleet.

Biggin Hill is generally expensive for flying lessons and you will spend a fortune on landing fees. Make sure you if you do go for a PPL that the exact rates, inclusive or exclusive of landing fees, are made explicit so you can compare.

There are also flying schools at Lydd and Manston.

Personally if it is just a few trial lessons you are after initially, I think the Tiger Club sounds the most fun. Just don’t go up in a Tiger when it is really cold 😀

Ahhhh DeHavilland …
http://www.tigerclub.co.uk/gacdc.gif

I live about 10 mins drive from where they are based so anywhere in kent really.

The NPPL, in terms of fixed wing and above the microlight category, is only really of any use for people who are unable to obtain a full medical. If you want to gain a CPL, you have to get a full JAR PPL(A) first. The NPPL is treated as non-standard.

Where do you live? There may be a cheaper outfit nearby that will furnish you with a trial lesson.

Thanks alot so the first step would be book a test flight with local school and see how that goes.

Just looking on site i noticed it’s got on there nppl course does this mean if i just do a ppl course im only allowed to fly in the uk. To fly else where would i have to do the nppl course ?

I also read that if i go to the other School mention above in ca (this one ) that once i done my ppl there its not only cheaper but i am also allowed to fly anywhere in the wolrd.

also looking at a first flight with them was looking at the The Land Away Double (1 hour*) here the link what you do you think good idear for first time or would you say another ?
1 Hour

If i did book this am i right in thinking it will go towards my ppl ?

Once again thanks for all your help u been amazing 🙂

Rather worryingly the accompanying letter stating CAA medicals are not strcitly JAR-complaint (but hey no one has complained yet) stated and I could be misquoting given the hour that statistically the EEG created more epiletic seizures than it found. 😮

Ahh that explains why I had to pay £420 then Neil, and I got a more stringent medical? 🙁
The EEG is not a nice experience I can assure you, you’ll be glad they don’t conduct this any more

£302, I had mine two months ago and you will need to go down to the CAA at Gatwick for the initial exam in their small clinic. Rather informal procedure so don’t panic. The price is less than it has been due to the EEG and chest X-Ray no longer being performed.

If you wear specs or contact lenses, you need a sight ‘script less than 12 months old. Mine wasn’t so I printed off the visual acuity requirements from the CAA website and had my optician test me against all of them. I think she enjoyed breaking away from the usual routine. Also you willl I believe need some form of additional approval if you wear contacts. The medical front desk will run through it all when you book in.

If it is a Class 2, you can do it more locally and there is a list of CAA Authorised Medical Examiners (AMEs) here. Those with a 10000 code can do Class 1 renewals, Class 2 Initials and Class 2 Renewals. Those with 20000 codes can only do Class 2 Initials and Class 2 Renewals. A Class 2, which is adequate for a PPL, may set you back between £100-130 as an estimate.

Just remembered a point about the English. Apparently my school had a quite intelligent chap over from Holland and knew quite a lot of aeronatics and commercial aviation. However because the exam questions are devious in their language he failed to pass. I have to respect therefore the guys in my class who are from Italy and the Faroes.

The initial Class 1 is about £420, it has to be done at Aviation House Nr Gatwick Airport, after that you can go to a regional AME provided they undertake Class 1’s, and the price comes down to around the £100 mark

Dean

Ah Thanks again i know see why Maths and English is needed one more thing for the Medical 1 how much does this cost i read it cost about £400 is this ture and also where can i find list of Doctors who able to do this.

I am a bit older at 38 so would have turned 40 by the time I got an ATPL even if I started now. In fact, add another 10 years to that to allow me time to save up! Nah, its something I should have done years ago. Hindsight is a wonderful thing eh? Really wish you the best of luck though Dean.

I think i’ll go and get a Pitts and become a professional aerobatic pilot….I’m off down the job centre to see if they have any vacancies at “Skystunts R Us” 😀

Indeed Si hindsight s a wonderful thing, I would have started mine 10 years ago if I had been “awake” to it.
Si the industry is crying out for the career flying instructor, it may be worth having a wee look to see what can be achieved, where there’s a will there’s a way and all that? 😉
And thanks for the wish Si, somehow I think I’m going to need it 😀

On the CTC Wings website u said about i would need to be bonded. I did read this on the website but was not 100% sure what it was. Does it mean if i quite the training or dont complete it i would have to pay them that amount?

It isn’t that clear no, it may be worth giving them a call, they are generally very helpful.
What I understand is that you will have to take out a loan from a high street bank to pay the £60k bond, this is held by a company called Airline Placement Ltd, upon completion of training this bond will be paid to the airline that you gain employment with and they will then release this bond back to you in increments to pay off the bond to the bank, so in effect costing you very little, if you fail however, I would be very surprised if they did nothing, I would bet they would recoup the money they had spent on your training, so it would pay not to pull out towards the end of the course because they said on the website the bond only covers 2/3 the training cost, so you stand to lose the lot, but it is always best to speak to them to get clarification.

This is the school nearest to me. school one

Cabair have a very good reputation, their integrated course is fully endorsed by airlines and alot of cadets do land jobs with airlines, however, be careful before signing anything modular, there are no guarantees with any course (not even integrated) but with modular I am under the impression you do not get the level of support as far as employment goes at the end of training, again, always best to speak to them.

This is a school that was recomended to me
school 2

I have had no experience with these whatsoever, it may be worth doing a search over at PPRuNe to see if there are any opinions on them, if not it is worth registering at PPRuNe and making a post yourself

I also saw this on ebay and was thinking about getting it just to have a read and look at. ebay

I am at work now so I cannot see what this is as access to eBay is restricted, I’ll look when I get home in the morning.

Also is there anyway i cant find out what is involved in the medical so if i do need to tune my health up i can work on that.

What is required in the Class 1 medical is listed here and what is required in the Class 2 medical is listed here

Also u said about

Some airlines & schools offer a free sponsorship program where they will pay for all your training, all they ask in return is that you work in their ops department or similar for 2-3 years, so in effect you are indirectly paying for your training because your wages will be nominal

Dont suppose you know anyone? i’ve had a look on few airlines website like Easy Jet they use CTC Wings could not see anythink on Virgin or British Airways.

I know of 2 in the last couple of months, 1 was with my training organisation which is Aeros Flight Training in Gloucestershire, the other is with Highland Airways, I do not know of any other, it is best to keep an eye on PPRuNe, there is a sticky post at the top of the wannabe section for the Aeros Sponsorship, and keep an eye out in the private flying monthly magazines. If I hear of any more I’ll post them here or PM you.

you also said Maths and English are important may be a silly question but why would maths and english be so inportant in flying ?

Blue Robin has told you why, but maths is especially important, you need to be pretty profficient because you may be needed to do alot of calculations in your head and quickly whilst in the air, for e.g. You may be cruising at FL350, and ATC give you your descent clearance, but they may ask you to be level at FL220 by a certain position, so you have to know your groundspeed, know how far you are away from said navaid, and then work out a rate of descent to make sure you are level by that navaid, the flight management computer is generally your best friend, but what if you have a failure etc etc?
Alot of Airline selection tests are based on Mathematics as well, if you only have basic maths skills you will not pass the aptitude tests.
As for English, well this speaks for itself, it’s a core skill, you are entering a professional career, good Maths & English is a pre-requisite

I think that’s about it once again thanks for all the advice 🙂

No worries at all, always glad to help, remember the only stupid question that exists is the one you don’t ask 🙂

The Wings scheme last time I looked wanted to you to fund about £60000 up front for the bond.

Cabair are rather expensive too.

Could you fund an Integrated course straight away? If not, could you fund a Modular route doing so over a greater time period?

You need decent Maths and English to get you through the ATPL theory. Maths because you need to be abel to juggle numbers and formulas, English because well let’s just say the questions are twisted such that they try not to give you the mark, 🙁

You may have to consider going to college first, all depends on how good you are 🙂

Millwall

If you want to embark on a professional flying career be a “little” wary of the adverts etc you see for the glossy schools etc etc.

First off, yes get that trial flight done, but be objective about it, if you have a bumpy flight due to weather and you don’t enjoy it that much it doesn’t mean that flying will be like that, see if you can get a good day, they should be a plenty with the winter high pressure systems we start to get in December & January.
Secondly think about what route you would like to take, are you in full time employment? do you wish to keep your job going? have you got funds available to pay for flight training? if you have then great, this opens up alot of windows, if not then you have to consider how you will fund it, and whether you will undertake a modular or integrated, integrated courses are on the whole alot more expensive, and you will have to do your training full time, if you go modular then you can generally pay as you go but be careful here as you do not want to spend too long between lessons etc for obvious reasons.
Let’s talk about each route you could take.

Modular

Modular means you can still work (to a point), which will help to pay the bills, you should start off by taking a trial lesson, if you like it then you will book a Private Pilot’s Licence course, do not pay for this in advance, alot of schools have gone bust and have taken people’s money, it isn’t a common occurance but it happens, beware.
During your PPL you will be required to take 7 written exams, 1 oral exam and a medical, I suggest getting your Class 1 done as opposed to your Class 2, you cannot fly commercially with a Class 2, and the Class 1 is alot more stringent, so get it done whilst you can, you don’t want to start shedding out lots of money on training if you are not fit to fly.
After your PPL you will start hour building, your PPL will be a 45hr course, some people take longer, then you need 150hrs to start your Commercial Pilot’s Licence, so you undertake hours building, during this period you will start distance learning for your ATPL examinations, this is generally split into 2 modules as there are 14 exams, some companies split the 14 exams into 3 modules, the content is not “that” difficult, it’s the sheer volume of information you need to retain in your head at any one time that is the killer.
Once you have the 14 exams and the 150hrs flight time you can start your CPL, this is a 25hr course, it includes 10hrs of instrument flight and must include 5hrs in a complex type, i.e. ratractable undercarraige & variable pitch prop.
You can do a Multi engine CPL, but this means you have to do your multi engine rating before hand, and it’s a tad more expensive, and with a multi CPL things can get away from you very very quickly during the CPL skill test.
You then do the Instrument rating, which will be done on a twin if you want to go to the airline, this is a 50hr course if you have the CPL out the way, if you do the IR first then it’s a 55hr course.
You then do an MCC which is a Multi Crew Co-operation, this allows you to fly multi crew cockpits, which you need for the airlines obviously. Then after this you can send out the CVs.

As for who to do all this with is generally a personal choice, but if you go modular it may be worth thinking of staying with the same provider as the airlines like continuity of training, I got this straight from the mouth of a recruiting captain from a major UK airline.

As for finance, if you have not got the money stashed away to pay for it as and when then you will need to keep working, this can be done quite easily, but when you get to the IR you may need to think about throwing the job in, it depends how flexible your employer is.
Again, you can go to the States to do all this, but you will have to give up work, and I have had it said again from someone within the industry that if they had 2 candidates in front of them, 1 who trained in the States and one who trained in the UK they would prefer the UK guy, but don’t let this put you off, I know a few people who have trained in the States and have landed jobs.
As for how much it costs really depends on alot of variables, i.e. who you train with, how well you progress, and how much you can keep the other costs down like living expenses etc, but by the time I finish at the end of Feb I would have spent in the region of £45-£50,000, maybe a tad more.

Integrated

Integrated is a great way to train, there are pro’s & cons, the pro’s being if you are good enough you will “more than likely” find employment with a large uk airline straight away, the downside is that this will cost you a considerable amount of money, alot of schools offer their integrated courses for about £65k, but this has been known to rise to nearly £90k or even the £100k figure.
You will undertake your training with the integrated provider from zero hrs right through to fATPL, the airlines look favourably on integrated students as opposed to modular, but it’s a catch 22, I could not afford to give up my job to go integrated because I have a mortgage and a young family.

Sponsorship

Sponsorship is pretty much dead in this country now, there are schemes that appear to be sponsorship, but the bottom line is that you will be bonded, or you will have some kind of outlay, this is not looking likely to change, you are correct in that CTC offer their Wings program, which is excellent, but you are bonded, check out their website for more info.
Some airlines & schools offer a free sponsorship program where they will pay for all your training, all they ask in return is that you work in their ops department or similar for 2-3 years, so in effect you are indirectly paying for your training because your wages will be nominal.

Academics

Millwall, I left school with GCSEs, I was one of these who could have done way better, but I didn’t have the guidence of my parents in certain ways like others had, but before I started flight training I did something to rectify this, I started a Maths Degree with the Open University, I am now doing A level English Language via distance learning, so I do suggest you do something similar even if it is to retake your GCSEs particularly Maths, English & Physics, end of the day you have to look at potential employers, if someone had grades and someone didn’t who is the biggest training risk? I know who I’d employ. You need to stay 1 step ahead, and think how best to widen your chances of employment, this is one of the most competitive industries in the world, places are few and potential employees are vast.

Millwall, these are only my opinions, they should not be taken as literal, but it may give you some food for thought.
Low & Slow is right, get down to your local flying school, look around and chat to the CFI, but try not to be blinded by the gloss, speak to ex students if possible, a good place to start is have a read of PPRuNe and read the wannabe sections, just be careful on there as you get alot of people who give bias opinions on things, and some opinions are very subjective as well.

If you are interested I typed up my CPL in a diary on the commercial section of this forum, take a look here

Good luck

Dean

Thanks alot Dean some great advice there. Got some more question tho 🙂

On the CTC Wings website u said about i would need to be bonded. I did read this on the website but was not 100% sure what it was. Does it mean if i quite the training or dont complete it i would have to pay them that amount?

This is the school nearest to me. school one

This is a school that was recomended to me
school 2

I also saw this on ebay and was thinking about getting it just to have a read and look at. ebay

Also is there anyway i cant find out what is involved in the medical so if i do need to tune my health up i can work on that.

Also u said about

Some airlines & schools offer a free sponsorship program where they will pay for all your training, all they ask in return is that you work in their ops department or similar for 2-3 years, so in effect you are indirectly paying for your training because your wages will be nominal

Dont suppose you know anyone? i’ve had a look on few airlines website like Easy Jet they use CTC Wings could not see anythink on Virgin or British Airways.

you also said Maths and English are important may be a silly question but why would maths and english be so inportant in flying ?

I think that’s about it once again thanks for all the advice 🙂

I am a bit older at 38 so would have turned 40 by the time I got an ATPL even if I started now. In fact, add another 10 years to that to allow me time to save up! Nah, its something I should have done years ago. Hindsight is a wonderful thing eh? Really wish you the best of luck though Dean.

I think i’ll go and get a Pitts and become a professional aerobatic pilot….I’m off down the job centre to see if they have any vacancies at “Skystunts R Us” 😀

Just out of curiosity, how old were you when you started the ATPL Deano??

Just noticed this question whilst re-reading Simon, I started my PPL in 2001 when I was 28, I didn’t start the ATPL exams until I was 31, it was actually 2 months before my 32nd birthday, I turn 34 in April next year

Dean

Academics – this as you say passes some people by when they were a teenager at school, for example, because they were in the wrong crowd at school with Kev and Bav, or chasing Katie (and Laura and Nicky and Sam and Katie again…) 🙂 Whatever the circumstances, this does not mean you are a failure and there are second chances.

Some people think a degree before ATPL is a good thing. Again it is not really about getting a degree but being capable of mind in achieving one. This applies to someone in my ATPL theory class who is 20 and has chosen to bypass that route.

In the same vein you need to be able to apply yourself and remain focused at the ATPL theory coupled with a total enthusiasm for and understanding of aviation. There are 14 subjects some of which require a lot of effort to pass. There are those shall we say who do not exhibit such qualities and will come unstuck.

That’s settled then 😀
But no pressure! 😮

I also vote for that, but I have a counter proposal, we have more than a few drinkies :D…………………………………………..but saying that it feels like I haven’t drunk alcohol for so long that a few might just be enough 😉