OK, for the people who do know to respect the forum rules, there was an interresting debate going on. I understand the moderators decission to close the thread, but the majority is able to form his opinion without racist comments I hope. People who are not should be banned immediatelly, so lets quietly continue.
Never mind helping their cause, they just bought themselves a new enemy
for hundreads of years. I don’t think the Ocetians will ever forgive the chechens or other muslim groups in the area. I wont be surprised to hear
of vendetas and revenge attacks against chechens and muslims in the
very near future..
As if it was that easy :rolleyes: It’s not a war between Occetia and Chechnya, not even between Russia and Chechnya. This is an ethnic conflict. Most people in Chechnya are as shocked by the events as any other member of the ‘civilised world community’. The last thing what we need now is some ‘rodents’ hoping for a war in the Caucasus. Will the Ocetians ever forgive? Yes. Forget, I sincerly hope not. Many people in Occetia are also muslim, and many in Chechnya are disgusted by what happened in that school.
By: Arthur - 17th September 2004 at 12:41
Anybody remember the Canadians caught beating up Serbs in Bosnia?
I thought not…
The Canadians also shot Croats – perfectly neutral if you ask me.
By: Erez - 16th September 2004 at 23:05
No need for proofs. From the early days of human history, we know that war was and still is hell. It can turn civlized men to animals. The wisdom is to stay civilized.
By: Nermal - 16th September 2004 at 11:25
Don’t know – any pictures? – Nermal
By: John Boyle - 15th September 2004 at 23:59
Anybody remember the Canadians caught beating up Serbs in Bosnia?
I thought not…
By: Flood - 15th September 2004 at 23:54
That’s because not all of the cases are considered serious enough to reach court, and thank god we don’t have a lot of cases that get to court.
Not thank god there are not a lot of these occurances taking place, I notice… Seems like as long as there is little international intervention or outcry then it will all be quietly dropped.
Flood
By: Erez - 15th September 2004 at 23:45
That’s because not all of the cases are considered serious enough to reach court, and thank god we don’t have a lot of cases that get to court.
Also remember two things –
1) The Palestinian authorities sometimes lie about the number of peoples that died during battles between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian terrorists. In a research the IDF did it was found that sometimes they reported more than once that the same person was killed, in different events. In other cases, they use names of people who died natural death or from deseases, or even people that don’t exist.
2) Sometimes the Palestinian terrorists are shooting at the Palestinian civlians. They are reckless with their weapons and they use automatic fire, while the Israeli soldiers use only single shot mode. Sadly there are a lot of civilian Palestinian casualties that are caused because of the terrorists.
By: Flood - 15th September 2004 at 23:07
So until proof of prosecutions comes to light then you must forgive us if we treat the stories of soldiers being punished for such crimes with a pinch of salt. Apart from one or two cases little will have taken place and all will have been kept very quiet: in this sense it will be rather like the Mai Lai incident in Vietnam in that little was done until the pictures were published after the event, then Lt Calley was court marshalled but served relatively little time and (if I recall rightly) wasn’t even dishonourably discharged from the army afterwards. Now the Americans have to really go to town to prove they are serious with things like the events in that Iraqi prison: who trusts them now?
Is that what you want? Tell the truth, not what they tell you.
Flood
By: F-18 Hamburger - 15th September 2004 at 21:01
let’s end it now.
The ones who rightfully owns what you call Israel/Palestine is neither the Israelites or the Phillistines..
it is
the Canaanites! which is me! I own your land!
let me grow a hamburger tree and feed your people.
By: Hand87_5 - 15th September 2004 at 20:37
Easy folks. This debate was gentle so far . let’s keep it interesting.
By: Erez - 15th September 2004 at 20:10
Balls. Erez, do you have a clue of you sayng? Do you have a clue what’s the meaning of “selective kills” of Israel? Such as fire a hellfire to a car with a guy comdamned to death by israel leadership, then fire again missiles vs. the clouth joined near the wrecks and kill a dozen of persons there? A palestinian is good only if dead, doesn’t it?
Balls. nuke1, do you have a clue of you saying? Do you have a clue what’s the meaning of “Shaid” of the Palestinians? Such as sending a madman to a bus full of citizens comdamned to death by the Palestinian terrorists? A jew is good only if dead, doesn’t it?
When you say seriously that things bad happens because some “bad apples” are in the army,f frustated, stupid or so, you play the same dirty game played always in these chases. If somewhat goes wrong the guilth is of a single soldier. Not of who has ordered to enter in a village and bulldoze it, but to someone that has accidentally fired to a kid killing him. some things are too much dirty to say that if something went wrong the guilth is only of the soldier xy. It’s a bit easy, not?
No, it’s not easy at all. And no, we don’t just blame the soldier, we also check who exactly gave him the order and why.
It’s not an easy job to control another people, and I hope it will be over soon. But until that happens, excuse me for understanting the hard reality our soldiers have to deal with every day.
By: Geforce - 15th September 2004 at 16:10
Greeeat post Flood. All your 11000+ are so?
11000 of these posts. Man, that would be an encyclopedia. Same for me I guess. Makes me wonder, what if I would bring all of my posts together and publish them, that would be a hell of a book (I mean quantity, not quality :diablo: ). But then again, who would buy such a crap.
By: nuke1 - 15th September 2004 at 15:21
Balls. Erez, do you have a clue of you sayng? Do you have a clue what’s the meaning of “selective kills” of Israel? Such as fire a hellfire to a car with a guy comdamned to death by israel leadership, then fire again missiles vs. the clouth joined near the wrecks and kill a dozen of persons there? A palestinian is good only if dead, doesn’t it?
When you say seriously that things bad happens because some “bad apples” are in the army,f frustated, stupid or so, you play the same dirty game played always in these chases. If somewhat goes wrong the guilth is of a single soldier. Not of who has ordered to enter in a village and bulldoze it, but to someone that has accidentally fired to a kid killing him. some things are too much dirty to say that if something went wrong the guilth is only of the soldier xy. It’s a bit easy, not?
By: Erez - 14th September 2004 at 21:40
These kind on events usually start and end inside the units and don’t get published in newspapers and such. However, whenever an innocent dies, we always check whether it was our fault. If it was, we check who exactly shooted and why. If we find something wrong in that soldier’s action, it does get published. Every few weeks we got here in the news reports about violence made by some soldiers. We don’t try to hide it, we try to deal with it and prevent it from happening again.
I can’t bring you individual cases here, but a simple google search about “Israeli soldiers kill” brings you some results that just show that we don’t try to hide these kinds of things. And we could have if we wanted. It’s not a problem dening such events.
Oh, and if it can go all the way back to the Six Day War and give details of a massacre of civilians that apparently never took place but led to a courts marshall not taking place which subsequently found all those who took part innocent since the event never officially happened, that would be good too.
Such as?
By: Flood - 14th September 2004 at 21:18
You can’t blame the whole army for stupid actions taken by a bunch fools or frustrated soldiers. Heck, a large part of the IDF isn’t even fighting in the Palestinian Territories.
These fools are prosecuted, and their commanders too. Also keep in mind that no army in the world has to deal with the problems the IDF is dealing. And again, you can’t blame the entire IDF and its soldiers because of stupid things a few of them did. The IDF’s soldiers still got a high moral and they are still proffesional. For sure they aren’t devils.
So, in the interests of showing how fair and above board the Israeli army is…you can provide details of all the soldiers and their officers who have been prosecuted for their actions on the frontline, can you? Doesn’t need to name them, just be independant of the Israeli government machine and giving details of their crimes, their sentence, how long they really served, and if they actually returned to their units afterwards or were discharged from service in disgrace. Oh, and if it can go all the way back to the Six Day War and give details of a massacre of civilians that apparently never took place but led to a courts marshall not taking place which subsequently found all those who took part innocent since the event never officially happened, that would be good too.
Look forward to seeing that…
Flood
By: beistrich - 14th September 2004 at 20:59
i mean the best in the whole www...
By: Hand87_5 - 14th September 2004 at 20:49
Yep, and it’s not even an “Israel-‘Palestina'” thread :diablo:
That’s right , we are a bit off topic but that’s an interesting debate. 🙂
By: Erez - 14th September 2004 at 20:47
Yep, and it’s not even an “Israel-‘Palestina'” thread :diablo:
By: beistrich - 14th September 2004 at 20:16
i have to say something (no wonder :diablo: )
This is the best thread of the Isreal-Palestina-Proplem i have ever see!
No asholes, no idots, no Fanatics
By: Erez - 14th September 2004 at 19:32
So what exactly does the Israeli army do – send a letter in the hope that the postman delivers before the bulldozers arrive? Why does it always seem that whenever houses are bulldozed and their occupants are interviewed by TV reporters they invariably complain that they were given seconds to get out or be buried – is the army that scared of TV exposure that they refuse to give warning and would rather have that sort of bad publicity spread around the world? There was a news report on (UK) Channel 4 News (last spring, I think) where a reporter was following a peace protestor: one evening they were invited to sample the hospitality of a Palistinian university professor and his family; the following morning they got a call to say that the village where they had just been entertained was being flattened by the Israeli army. They found their friend and his family alive but that they had escaped with relatively nothing from their home before it was bulldozed.
An Israeli Arab student I talked to a few months ago told me about his uncle, that was informed that his home will be bulldozed, a few weeks before it did. Perhaps it’s got something to do with the opertional needs of the IDF.
Should these kids wait in their homes as the bulldozers plough up their town and squash their homes? Should they go to school and prey that they have a home to return to at the end of the day? Or should they give up hope and just throw stones at the tanks, APCs, bulldozers, etc?
Since when kids decide alone whether to go into battle fields?
The question I’m asking is, where the hell are their parents?
Do they even know where their kids are?
I don’t care where these kids will be – they can be either in their home, that if the IDF will have to destroy, they will be informed about it, or in school where they are safe.
And your young soldiers obviously have absolutely no respect for human life or any realisation that their sheer stupidity can lead to an escalation in violence.
Ok, first of all, you can’t say that whole of our soldiers are evil. The international media is trying to demonize the picture of the Israeli soldier.
The Israeli army used to be a very professional army, highly regarded around the world for their skill and ingenuity. Now I would lump them in with those swaggering braggarts from the Vietnam era who proudly boasted that they knew and understood ‘Charlie’, would encourage the sticking of severed heads on their vehicles and merrily collect their fallen foes ears to make necklaces (not that I am saying that this is what is happening now – just that the same style of ‘we can do no wrong’ is permiating from the army). Anyway, the commanding officers and the NCOs of these young hotheads should be prosecuted for gross incompetence if that is the best defence that can be put forward, so as to show the world that such disrespect will not be tolerated – the Americans are only now finding out just how bad things can get when troops lack respect for the innocent and treat the good as though they were bad.
Again you should understand that the IDF’s policy is to try not to hurt the Palestinian civilians. There are some problems, but they are local only and will be and are handled. You can’t blame the whole army for stupid actions taken by a bunch fools or frustrated soldiers. Heck, a large part of the IDF isn’t even fighting in the Palestinian Territories.
These fools are prosecuted, and their commanders too. Also keep in mind that no army in the world has to deal with the problems the IDF is dealing. And again, you can’t blame the entire IDF and its soldiers because of stupid things a few of them did. The IDF’s soldiers still got a high moral and they are still proffesional. For sure they aren’t devils.
By: Arthur - 14th September 2004 at 18:20
That’s one of the good things about being a moderator – if you pull a thread off-topic, just change the title :diablo:
Sign In
September 6, 2004 at 8:42 pm