Lexington and TBDs found

While i agree that depth of water should protect Lexington for the moment HMS Exeter was only in 200ft of water not the 8000ft of Lexington, it sounds horrible but the deeper they are the safer they are at the minute, unfortunately no governments seem to care about this issue especially the Indonesian government whose existence is due to these wrecks in part.

The aircraft however are not on the ship and had no crew in them when the ship was lost, the ship itself is the war grave and the US Navy is already looking at recovering some of the aircraft so they can’t be worried about disturbing a grave.

Curlyboy

Amazingly successful search, discovery and documentation of a significant wartime loss.

With regards to the status of any or all of USS Lexington and her aircraft as a ‘war grave’ I think, above all, we need to be pragmatic; governments rarely have the time, jurisdiction, money or (sadly) inclination to ensure that ‘war graves’ are treated with the respect that they deserve.

Hopefully the depth of the water will protect the wreck site from the unscrupulous (or the ignorant) but deep-water salvage technology is getting cheaper and more accessible and the financial rewards can make the ‘recycling’ of wartime wrecks a lucrative business with little risk of prosecution.

Think this can’t happen?

Have a look at HMS Exeter: her wreck was rediscovered in 2007 in Indonesian waters and she was declared a ‘war grave’ but by 2016, when a survey was scheduled for her, she had been completely removed by illegal salvage operations; every historic scrap of her, and any human remains that she contained, were ignominiously tossed into the nearest scrap smelter!

Of course you all remember the public outrage and the rapid government condemnation, the immediate action taken to prevent this happening to other historic ‘war graves’ and the relentless pursuit and prosecution of the guilty…..no? Neither do I.

“War Grave” my ****!

Recover the aircraft, recover anything else you don’t want to lose…..and do it now!

Amazing stuff! I’m reminded of a documentary about the wreck of the Ark Royal I watched a good decade ago – complete with footage of Swordfish and Fulmars…
Would love to see a Devastator restored one day 🙂

I appreciate the war grave situation, but surely this does not apply to these aircraft.

Correct, it does not.

This also opens the window on what else is out there regards aircraft at depth, perhaps remote recovery will be possible?

What amazing pieces of history. I appreciate the war grave situation, but surely this does not apply to these aircraft. I really hope that some of them can be salvaged and preserved.

The world population of TBDs has just increased since the discovery of the wreck of the USS Lexington

This is fantastic news, I’m loving it. But dare I point out that the world population of TBDs hasn’t changed at all?

All the best, cheers

Hi There,
While I can understand the why Lexington being categorised as a war grave brings out such emotions you only have to look at the dispersement in the
image from the linked article below (Courtesy:-http://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/paul-g-allen-expedition-discovers-the-sunken-uss-lexington-and-her-aircraft.htmlto see how widespread it is. If the ship was whole I would agree but the ship is in parts and the aircraft are scattered around at least a 1/2-1 mile in distance from the nearest piece of ship so long as no body are disturbed I would support a recovery for historic reasons.

Apart from the above the condition of the aircraft is remarkable and there are obviously more than the seven mentioned I would imagine a further detailed examination of the debris field will lead to further discoveries of more aircraft without a shadow of a doubt, I counted 10 from the debris filed image alone. congratulations is due to all the team involved in this unique and expensive project which has come to a successful conclusion unlike one project that has featured on the forum recently.

Geoff.

Over on the WIX forum and on the WIX Facebook page the underwater Wildcat is being associated with pilot Noel Gayler, later an admiral and an ace. A sharper photo than the one I saw yesterday shows a partial name painted under the cockpit. I found the same photo on Paul Allen’s Twitter page. I cropped it, rotated it a bit, and then annotated it. There is a G, then A, then obscured text, then a final letter, an R. I spelled out G-A-Y-L-E-R, though the spacing between stenciled letters might be excessive, especially when compared to the stenciled name of Butch O’Hare in a wartime photo. I don’t know. It’s a different font than that seen on the O’Hare photo. Here are images.

I don’t have the expertise to delve deeper into the records to further match up pilots with planes and kill claims. My guess is that this wasn’t just one pilot’s aircraft, and I don’t know if any kills were scored in White F-5; as someone suggested on WIX, the kill flags may have been contrived for publicity photos. Or all four kills were in this aircraft. And all four kills might be tied to one pilot. Or more than one pilot. Etc.

Sure is interesting. I imagine impeccable US Navy aviation historians will sort it out, in time.

Aside from the difficulties with the USN, I would hope that if recovery of some aircraft takes place then the USN makes sure that appropriate preservation is undertaken so that these historic aircraft don’t wind up rotting because of lack of funds. The recovery of the DO 17 in the English Channel shows just how complex and expensive the process is.

It’s still a war grave no matter how far the debris field is scattered, and as such I concur with others that they should not be touched.

I spoke with the US Navy History & Heritage Command and they do not consider the aircraft found as war graves, only the ship.

Yes it’s the USN that causes the problem – most countries write off war losses. For some reason the USN doesn’t. I suspect it’s not for sentiment’s sake but something to do with fiscal matters.

I’m not an expert but I don’t think the USA considers war graves the same way do, looking at a few links I think it just means that the US navy still claims ownership and won’t grant permission to salvage anything.

Many of the Pearl Harbour ships that contained casualties were salvaged and put back to work . Effectively those ships were graves. In relation to the Lexington -if the aircraft contain no human remains I cannot see how salvaging some TBD for memorial use is any different to the efforts spent to recover ships bells

It’s still a war grave no matter how far the debris field is scattered, and as such I concur with others that they should not be touched.

an interesting report:

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/logs/CV/cv2-Coral-prelim.html

looks like the ship hung on for as long as possible before being scuttled. I take it that these aircraft were the ones blown into the air, from the flight deck, by the explosion caused when the torpedo warheads detonated in their store?

amazing how the colours have survived, so vivid, and the aircraft conditions don’t look that poor I saw on one report 11 aircraft had been seen, it would be good for at least one TBD-1 for the Pearl Harbour museum and 1 for Pensacola also the F-4F with the 4 kills… that’s if I was a billionaire and could cherry pick.

regards,
jack…

“
Different aircraft. “

Regardless of fact that the Felix the Cat is in the wrong position on panel

Paul

With RPV’s probably a lot easier than it used to be . I think the TBD’s are worthy of recovery

While I would love to see some of the aircraft recovered, particularly the TBD, how feasible is it given the depth they are located at?