Liberation.

An interesting development:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21261775

Vermin? That’s exactly what the Nazis called Jews in their propaganda posters…

Reparation? I’m so glad you mentioned that.

After being employed as a labourer….. …..building the Death Railway thru’ Thailand, my friends father arrive back in this country as a gibbering wreck.

As a fairly elderly gent he eventually received some conscience money in the shape of £10,000 or its equivalent in yen. Who paid it, I know not

Question: Was he paid this amount because of some imaginary grievance he held or, were there in your opinion solid but gruesome events that gave rise to the payment of what amounted to some derisory compensation?

That’s not the reparation that I was talking about.

I’m sure you know that the £10,000 came from the British Government as an ‘ex-gratia’ payment for those who qualified for it. So presumably he hadn’t been a recipient of compensation via JARS after the 1951 SFPT.

Yes, it was a paltry sum wasn’t it? Especially so after all those years. However, once you start trying to put a monetary value on these things it can all get a bit difficult, can’t it? How much is ‘enough’ for each individual’s situation?

So the ex-gratia payment didn’t come from Japan and wasn’t anything to do with the post-war reparations I mentioned. It was between the British Government and the qualifying FEPOWS and civilians. An angle to this that hasn’t been discussed much…..

Here specially for you, is a list…..

I don’t know how many times I would have to repeat it before you took it on board, but I am not denying ANYTHING and I am not an “apologist” either. Either you believe it or you don’t.

Here’s another request to explain your “vermin” comment from your post #37. Please clarify, or – better – withdraw it. If it is what I think it is then it really has no place in a civilised discussion, no place on this forum and – honestly – no place in a sane man’s head.

John/Oppama et al.

I firstly didn’t expect the thread to go the way it has.
I’ve expressed my views twice now on the Nazis (once more than I rather expected) and I won’t be taking the thing any further.

As to the Japanese. As a young man growing up in East Anglia there were plenty examples around me of men who had suffered terrible things in the Far East.
As my own Father once said-and his war had by our standards been no free holiday:-” My war was like a paid holiday compared with what they went through.”
And it’s easy to get angry.
However, it didn’t stop me rushing out to buy Japanese motorcycles, cameras, cars, TV’s etc.
In fact, I’m a life-long devotee to the products of Soichiro Honda–and he helped make aeroplane propellers during the war.
I did hear that he once whacked an indolent design engineer with a camshaft–and maybe that says more about the Japanese psyche than much else.
If though I was asked to name my engineering hero, it would be he. Sometimes (like today) when I’ve had my hands deep inside the workings of a Honda engine, I wonder and marvel at the workings of the minds of those who designed them. There was after all a very good reason why the British bike industry died a death.

I did know people once who wouldn’t have a japanese product in the house.
It was never I though.

A.

Oppama

Reparation ? I’m so glad you mentioned that. When Andy re-opened this subject, which, incidentally, because of the bitter memories of my generation particularly, is a subject that evokes the strongest of opinions very often expressed in the most pungent form.

After being employed as a labourer first class, by the exponents of the afore mentioned Co-Prosperity Sphere, having, thru’ no choice of his, foregone the usual paid overtime, holidays with pay and all the other workers benefits derived from his exertions while building the Death Railway thru’ Thailand, my friends father arrive back in this country as a gibbering wreck.

As a fairly elderly gent he eventually received some conscience money in the shape of £10,000 or its equivalent in yen. Who paid it, I know not

Question: Was he paid this amount because of some imaginary grievance he held or, were there in your opinion solid but gruesome events that gave rise to the payment of what amounted to some derisory compensation?

In an earlier comment, I gave a list of Nazi concentration camps that became a byword for bestial cruelty. Here specially for you, is a list of comparable Jap venues renowned as centers of excellence for unmitigated sadism:

Bataan
Corregidor
Philippines
Mantanani Island
Dinawan Island
The Death Railway
Comfort Women
Rape of Nanking
Pingfang

And most infamously of all’ Unit 731

I have never been to Japan – I have no desire to go. I do not speak Japanese – I have no desire to learn. I do tho’ know my history of WW2. The list above is a mere fraction of all those places that were the recipient of Japanese culture and militarism. If there is any justice beyond this mortal plane it will be reserved in perpetuity for those vile beasts who visited their capacity for unimaginable cruelty upon their hapless and enfeebled victims.

Unit 731

“We removed some of the organs and amputated legs and arms. Two of the victims were youn women, 18 or 19 years old. I hesitate to say it, but we opened up their wombs to show the younger soldiers. They knew little about women – it was sex education.”

Akiro Makino
March 2007

I wonder how many forum members (especially those, who like me, have had military service) if they had been growing up in Nazi Germany, would have had the moral strength to say “No, I’m not going to do that!”, and I also wonder how many actually did. I suspect that given the same circumstances, we would have been eager to join the military recruitment queues…

I spent a few years working for German companies and the fathers of two of my good friends were in the party and one in the SS. My friends despised their history but understood why they joined. During all my time in Germany and working with Germans, many of whom becasme good friends, the discussions about the past were just that. The past. They felt no responsibility for what happened and looked to the future and the end of the Cold War and perhaps even a reunited Germany. They were proud of the democratic West Germany which had picked itself up and rebuilt itself in the post-war years. And many of them had a terrific sense of humour.

It’s all very well to have armchair hatred of everything Nazi today…

Yes it is! 😀

But otherwise I absolutely agree; it is far too easy to say that it could never happen here / happen again.

The danger I think is that by having (and I use the words very advisedly) a ‘respect’ for the military capabilities of Nazi Germany or an ‘appreciation’ of the engineering of Nazi weapons it is all too easy to become ‘comfortable’ with the Nazi regime itself. There is also a danger of compartmentalising the responsibility for the worst atrocities onto ‘the Nazis’, ‘the SS’ or ‘the Gestapo’; while there is some logic in this it very much depends on the experience of the war between (say) Britain and Nazi Germany.

As for the culpability of German people, I see no reason why modern Germans should feel any guilt over what their parents/grandparents did. It’s all very well to have armchair hatred of everything Nazi today, but don’t forget that youngsters approaching military service age, and civilians too in 1930s Germany had been brainwashed and indoctrinated from their very early days, so had very little choice in the matter.
A man who very nearly became my father-in-law was a member of the SS during WW2. His parents, friends, and school teacher all encouraged him to join the Hitler Youth, and membership gave the whole family benefits.
Joining the SS later was a huge honour, and bestowed the family with the best theatre tickets, restaurant seats, and dispelled the need to queue for foodstuffs etc. It also elevated the entire family above mainstream suspicion, since they would all have been rigorously vetted for the application.
I wonder how many forum members (especially those, who like me, have had military service) if they had been growing up in Nazi Germany, would have had the moral strength to say “No, I’m not going to do that!”, and I also wonder how many actually did. I suspect that given the same circumstances, we would have been eager to join the military recruitment queues…

I’d still rather take the line that not much good came from the Nazis.

But some did so I think that’s about right, and we can argue the finer points. I agree, Kershaw wrote well about the regime.

I now ask the forum. Should she feel blame for being German and carry that to her grave?

If you have read my posts you will know that my answer is, no.

Too my bitter regret when I was about seven at school in Tottenham we had a German girl in our school she was about 10. Her name was Marion Decker and the bullying and abuse we gave her was really bad.This “nazi kraut bitch” took it all until one day she was sent home early to the people who adopted her and we were sat down and shown pictures of concentration camps and no punches were pulled. I will never forget what the teacher said. “These people were Jewish and all but one of her family killed there apart from her and her Aunt who managed to make it to Holland and were sheltered until the end of the war” I don’t think I have felt shame like that since.

I hope she had a good life and forgave those(including me) who did not understand anything but hate.

I now ask the forum. Should she feel blame for being German and carry that to her grave?

…never shall they be forgotten…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21200051

“I had an operation once and the anaesthetist comes and looks at [the tattoo on] my arm and he says, ‘What is this?’ And I said, ‘That’s from Auschwitz.’ And he said, ‘Auschwitz, what was that?’ And that was a young man, a qualified doctor.”

Oppama
Your various comments certainly seem to favour the opposition. Perhaps it’s my interpretation but you do not seem too willing to acknowledge the culpability of the Japs and the Germans during WW2.

You don’t seem to be reading what I’ve been writing. I say again, I do not deny anything and culpability is so clear that it’s ridiculous to argue against it. It should go without saying in any reasoned and intelligent debate.

Perhaps that is why Kev 35 – normally the most emollient of contributors – infers that that you appear to be an apologist.

And that’s where he too is – of course – quite wrong. It’s a pity, as I respect him ( from what little I know of him, gleaned from what I read on this forum ) and can see that he is a great advocate for the dignity and memory of the common soldier. Until we get onto the subject of Imperial Japan that is, and then it all goes out of the window.

The Jap government were grudging and conditional in their weak and vague allusions to any form of apology for their savagery. In any event, the extent and depth of their almost casual barbarity precluded any meaningful apology so, to that extent, they might as well not have bothered, which in fact, that is what it amounted to.

I don’t know which particular post-war Japanese government you are talking about ( do you? ), but it seems irrelevant anyway: According to you, any apology would not be worth listening to. The Japanese nation has – through various Prime Ministers and even the Emperor himself – made multiple apologies, expressed deep remorse and has made many reparation payments over the years. Repetition of the stories that they have not apologised / have not apologised enough, supplies legitimacy. So it’s not really true, but it suits you to have it both ways anyway.

I note the studied use of the term “Jap” again, by the way. It looks quite arch when you use it repeatedly, especially when you seem to be able to bring yourself to write German / Germany so easily alongside it. Telling.

It is a tribute to the forebearance of the Allies, that so many criminals of the Japanese Army escaped the hangman. Just as well that I wasn’t there. Two nuclear bombs seems insufficient retribution for these savages.

You seem to believe that the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were “retribution”? Unfortunately, the bombs were not actually aimed specifically at the criminals ( or your “savages” ), and I think what you call “forebearance” was more to do with MacArthur and SCAP deciding what was good for the USA with a view to the coming Cold War than anything else. In fact, you might do well to address most of your claims in MacArthur’s and SCAP’s direction.

And what if you were there? What exactly would you have done? A bit of judge, jury and executioner style vigilantism? Where would you have started, and where would you have stopped? Perhaps a spot of genocide? It’s a slippery slope….

I do wonder just how much you know about the activities of the Japanese Army and in particular the Kempeitei.

Quite a lot more than you appear to want to imagine, I’d say. With family members who were on both sides of the conflict, I’ve heard first-hand accounts that you won’t have. Having lived and worked in Japan, travelling back and forth between Japan and England over the last twenty five years and speaking Japanese fluently, I reckon there’s a good chance that I might know a little bit more about it than you think. How many Japanese people – both veterans of the war and civilians – have you spoken to in Japanese? Each of them has an individual story to tell, you know.

Of course, if you think of them simply as “vermin” then you won’t want to hear…

Gentlemen.
As ever on this little forum things often don’t go as planned.
I see that ever since I posted my initial post the other night, you’ve all been happily arguing away about the subject (and much else besides) without me.
I think I need to clarify a little. When I typed my original post I was both angry and moved. I’d just been watching a gentleman playing his violin at Auschwitz and as I said it was very moving.
I felt a certain amount of anger too, regarding the injustice of it all, and the great inhumanity–Hopefully, you will at least allow me that.
I certainly didn’t think you’d still be chewing the bones of it all this time later.

I suppose if you want my own view on the subject that Al raised, then it’s this. I cannot disagree that the scientific benefits you mention were not accrued. Whether or not they might have been gained by other means at a later date and by less extreme means, remains I suppose a moot point.
As to strong leadership, I might well disagree there. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time trying to get to the bottom of why a people as sophisticated as the Germans somehow allowed Hitler to get hold. I’d suggest you all read the two volume biography of Hitler by Professor Ian Kershaw and his shorter book on the Nazis in general if you can. I think he rather illustrates that Nazism was chaotic at best, Hitler indolent and the rather methodical and method loving German people trying to make sense of the chaos.
I’d still rather take the line that not much good came from the Nazis.

Back to the Nazis and the extermination of the Jews. Google IBM and the Nazis.

Oppama

Your various comments certainly seem to favour the opposition. Perhaps it’s my interpretation but you do not seem too willing to acknowledge the culpability of the Japs and the Germans during WW2.

Perhaps that is why Kev 35 – normally the most emollient of contributors – infers that that you appear to be an apologist.

My current history of Japanese military involvement in WW2 reads as a continuous nightmare for those on the receiving end of the Nipponese Co-Prosperity Sphere.

The Jap government were grudging and conditional in their weak and vague allusions to any form of apology for their savagery. In any event, the extent and depth of their almost casual barbarity precluded any meaningful apology so, to that extent, they might as well not have bothered, which in fact, that is what it amounted to.

It is a tribute to the forebearance of the Allies, that so many criminals of the Japanese Army escaped the hangman. Just as well that I wasn’t there. Two nuclear bombs seems insufficient retribution for these savages.

I do wonder just how much you know about the activities of the Japanese Army and in particular the Kempeitei.

Read the book, title quoted, and then tell me I’m wrong.

My friend, you cannot in justice, defend the indefensible. Their moral guilt and shame will be there forever. Yes, and still they deny.

Wrong about what though? I’m not denying or “defending” any atrocities or war crimes. You seem to think otherwise?

I am however still unsure as to what or whom you are pointing the finger at specifically. Are you talking about the Japan and individual Japanese ( and other nationalities…. ) of 1945 and before who perpetrated the crimes, or the Japan and Japanese of today? I ask this because you say “….still they deny”. Who is denying what, and in who’s name?

And then you go on to write:

I’m not holding to account the individual modern German or Jap. They can have no connection with the events here described. It is my honest belief that a guilt and a shame so total and complete as to be almost tangible, grips the modern nation state of Germany and Japan and accompanies them into – for all we know – the limitless future.

So you appear to be saying that you don’t hold the “individual modern Jap” ( Japanese, please ) to account, but at the same time that a guilt and shame grips the modern nation state of Japan for ‘the limitless future’? If that’s the case, then who in Japan is denying anything, and who are they ( not ) speaking for?

I’d still like to hear you answer my question about your “vermin” comment too. To whom – or what – are you referring please?

As for strong leadership, Adolph Hitler picked up a bankrupt, depressed, and humiliated nation and in a few short years forged it into a force the world had never seen before, one which took almost the rest of the entire planet to quell.

He also did it by borrowing more money that Germany could ever hope to pay back, even if the Third Reich did last for a thousand years, so the only way out for Germany was to embark on the conquests that started the Second World War (in the west).

Or does your definition of ‘strong leadership’ apply only to those on the winning side…

No, but I would never apply any term that could be construed as complimentary to Hitler or the Nazi Party!

…or who make decisions which turn out to be ‘right’?

Now, remind me, which bit of Hitler’s personal Nazi Party Holocaust didn’t turn out to be ‘right’? :rolleyes:

…the Nazis made ground-breaking advances in welfare, and law and order – but they only applied to pure Germans.

Well that’s one HELL of a caveat! :rolleyes:

Absolutely not and I am appalled my post gave that impression. There are no mitigating circumstances for genocide.

I should have edited Al’s comments – I would not have included some of those points either.

Right, we’re on the same page now! 🙂