Lightning High Altitude Flights

80000′ feet plus

Have just stumbled on this interesting thread so will throw in my 2p’s worth.
As a WIWOL I can vouch for the fact that 80000’+ indicated was very acheivable and did so myself in an F1A but would have thought that the much heavier F6/F53 would normally have really struggled above 80000 and 90000’+ is, in my humble opinion, fantasy. Having served with BC I too do not doubt his claim but I should point out, for those that may not appreciate it, that all these altitudes were extremely transitory being at the top of a prolonged, ballistic trajectory.
No one has mentioned the question of IAS and therefore aerodynamic controllability at these altitudes. I haven’t done the figures but I can assure you it is very low and you certainly wouldn’t want to be playing around with any aileron input! I am curious as to whether any others of those who have been there found, as I did, the complete lack of forward stick authority and got to the altitude they did as a result.
My lasting memory of my bit of stupidity ‘I wonder how high I can get?’ was that the sky went very dark, there was hardly a sound (apart from a thumping heart!) and that the view was sensational – out of this world almost!

Red Top looking at an SR71

Hello folks,

Whilst sitting round the dinner table with Jimmy Dell some two years ago, Jimmy recounted a tale of a Lightning somewhere getting up high and getting a brief lock onto a passing SR71 with a Red Top.

I guess the SR71 was at Mach 3+ and the Red Top does similar so, no chance of a shoot but i bet the 71’s RWR lit up causing a trouser twitch for a second or two.

Can anyone out there add to this or clarify/correct this tale.

I guess Jimmy was in the info loop regarding classified Lightning related ‘stuff’ so i have no doubt it happend.

If brian said it, you could take it as gospel. he was straight up, and as experienced as you could possibly get on Lightings. Brian confirmed that he did get to 87,000ft in an F53 in Saud. 95,000 has to be an exgeration. Brian was clear that @ 87,000 the 53 he was flying was almost uncontrollable, and wasn’t able to maintain the altitude for long.

Have to concure with Milt here, I spoke at length with Brian on this subject and many of his Lightning experiences over the 10+ years I knew him, Brain was a true gent, ‘straight as a die’.
Would never ‘over cook’ his stories

Great thread this one 😉

If brian said it, you could take it as gospel. he was straight up, and as experienced as you could possibly get on Lightings. Brian confirmed that he did get to 87,000ft in an F53 in Saud. 95,000 has to be an exgeration. Brian was clear that @ 87,000 the 53 he was flying was almost uncontrollable, and wasn’t able to maintain the altitude for long.

From all of the above though it seems we have three pilots who claimed to have got to around 88K (the 95K was a gross exaggeration by someone, not Mike Hale I hasten to add!)

Brian Carroll ended up wth over 3000 hours on Lightnings and although I never met him, we corresponded on a regular basis. With all that experience I think he would have told it exactly as he saw it. Of course he fully appreciated the potential dangers and would have been monitoring the numbers closely. The rate of climb was much reduced by 85K and he would have had plenty of time to assess what his altimeter was telling him.

On his way down ATC asked him for his altitude and he took great pleasure in saying ‘Descending through FL700’ which caused a fair amount of consternation in the Tower!

Peter

high Flight

Having just done a quick google , one of the said pilots apparently flew past Concorde which was doing Mach 2.2……..:rolleyes::D. That would be the Concorde that could cruise for 2 hours + on 4 x Olympus at mach 2.0!Hmmmm

High Flight

Monsun
i guess the alt error is not a lot. However as you correctly point out one of the pilots is not around to tell us. The Lightning had no recording device so unless you had a camera and took a picture of the Altimeter, well who knows. I could say i’ve flown a Meteor at Mach1.3 in a ive and no one could prove otherwise. I think the real pilots who flew the Lightning RP Beaumont and Jimmy Dell never went that high and for very good reasons so i for one take some stories with a pinch of salt.

Sadly Brian Carroll is no longer around to ask and I have no idea where Dave Roome is now. The last I heard he was at Delta Jets.

I would imagine the 87,000 ft+ that was mentioned would have been an indicated reading, does anyone have any idea of likely instrument error at that altitude?

Peter

High Level Intercepts

300 yds is for a stabilized Visual identification position this would be fine up to say 40,000 feet however above this hight it would be impossible to achieve co-speed and there for a stabilized position. Therefore a technique know as a passing VID would be performed normally at about a mile the target would be moved a couple of degrees to allow the fighter to pass the target on one side to identify it. A lot depends on the Rules of engagement the lightning had no means of declaring a target hostile without visually identifying it. The only time this might be waved was if the target was supersonic. For example a Red Top could be fired at a head on target at say 7 miles if it was supersonic. As to the ROE of a 5000 foot bubble i would guess that would be a USAF rule! 5000 foot is pretty much 1 mile are you sure its not 500 foot? The standard rules the RAF used was a 500 foot bubble around the target.
Getting back to the original question i would place a very large amount of money on no Lightning going above 80,000 feet ish!

salad fingers

300 yards sounds a bit close. During the U-2 trials in 1962 the rules of engagement included a stipulation that the Lightning was not to approach within 5,000 feet from the rear and on no account was to pass in front of the U-2.

The time available to effect the interception at 60K was only 80 seconds and this had reduced to 30 seconds at 65K. After that minimum control speed was reached and it was time to start heading down again.

Peter

The Truth!

A friend of mine once told in a bar a very true statement. If women tell you how many men theyve slept with and you multiply the answer by 2 and if men tell you how many women theyve slept with and you divide the answer by 2 you will probably get the correct Answer!
I’ve spoken to my friend who has the following thoughts… The Lightning would happily fly at 40,000 feet be pretty controlable at 50,000 feet and be ballistic above 60,000 feet. So if we take all the posts in Context. In the early 1960’s yes the Lightning F1As did perform intercepts on High Flying U2s. Indeed the USAF pilots were more than a little surprised to see Lightnings float past! I understand from the pilots view high level intercepts are EXTREMELY dangerous. Trying to close on another aircraft that is at say FL490 right on the stall whilst you are struggling to keep control and aiming to stabilize 300 yards behind is not for the faint hearted. Yes you could in theory fly at FL400 Mach 2.0 and pull the stick back however this is what was likely to happen as the aircraft passed 70,000 feet both engines would flame out and unless you had the Taylor pressure helmet on and vest you now had a about 2 minutes to live before certain death. Indeed a certain Lightning Pilot in 1984-5 performing an air test on an F3 that had sat in the hanger for several years got a close call. Passing Fl450 going up the canopy seal split and pressurization began dropping so he rolled inverted and got below Fl200 pronto. Mr J makes some valid points but engine shut downs were banned after in flight fire in the late 70s /early 80s. Having shut an engine down the pilot left the fuel pumps on and when he relit the engine well lets say it re lit rather well! As for personalities i would not wish to comment however read into this what you will. If any Lightning was going to get above 78,000 feet it would have been an F1A or perhaps an F3. THe pilot of XR773 is as honest a fighter pilot as you could meet so who knows as for the claim of 95,000 feet if you go back to my original analogy….that makes it about 45,000!. My guess is 78,000- 8?,000 feet but who knows!

Very Interesting thread look forward to more replies.

I bet you are 😉

😀

High Flight

Very Interesting thread look forward to more replies.

Mjr, perhaps your “wrong” comment was directed at the post previous to mine – think that might explain what you’re talking about? Naturally, all the talk of losing consciousness and so on is neither here nor there if the aircraft had already stalled, entered into a tumble and broken-up!

yes well sarcasm aside Chox, do you know much about Lightnings? I’ll go through it for you. I would like to hear a direct account from an ex Lightning pilot losing pressurisation and conditioning @ 75,000ft plus, and recovering alive, because it would be a very slim chance of survival. Which Lightning pilots would they be? Well, the ones with super human bodies that allowed them to descend for 2 minutes vertically with zero power, no cockpit pressurisation, conditioning or oxygen supply, and not fall foul to severe hypoxia? or the ones with once in a life time good fortune?

I wonder if you would remain in one piece long enough to carry out the rest of your scenario.

Just can’t see 95,000 as anything like realistic. IIRC the Soviets tried “ballistic” climb profiles to intercept U-2 (or try to) with MIG-21’s etc – single engined but of a similar technology, I don’t recall claims of 95,000 or so?

Dave

Thanks for that.

I was informed of this high altitude flight some months ago and the person who related the story was adamant that he got to 95,000 ft.

I would imagine that a bit more height is added at every telling, so if this tale is still doing the rounds he’s probably got to 100K by now!

Peter

Found the bit I saw, a bit less than 95K is claimed!!

http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/0410.php

Didnt the same type of incident occur in a typhoon recently?, the typhoon going vetically, downwards, and breaking the sound barrier 😮

😀 that would be my first thaught too after the engine flamed out at 75,000! right before a brown flight suit.