I was just wondering if anyone had any info on the future of Lightning XS903 at Elvington? I live in Rotherham South Yorks and make a few trips to Elvington each year and with the ligthning been my faveorite aircraft a pay particular interest in XS903, She seems to have been sat in a half painted condition for quite a few years now and the last time I spoke to anyone at Elvington they said she was privately owned and would maybe geting some engines in the near future, that would have been about 2 years ago.
By: 320psi - 16th February 2009 at 19:25
Andy,
I didn’t think about the electrical start system:o, aside from the astronomical cost, could you imagine the look on peoples faces when you hit the start button, only to be met with the dry whir of an electric motor instead of the spine tingling weeeeeeeeeeeeeee Pssssssssssssssst !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lightning fans would be running for the hills 😉
John.
No John I cant, it wont ever happen, when avpin runs out thats it for us 🙂
Cheers
By: Robert Hilton - 16th February 2009 at 18:13
£1000 to have the engines…..
Typical MOD cost bizarreness…..
If you think about it, with the cost of sending a crew from Binners to Elvington to demil and remove both donks etc., in hard costs you would think the cost to the new owner would have been a £1000 reduction for NOT to remove the engines etc…….:rolleyes:
The RAF didn’t need the donks anymore for the Lightning fleet, (unless they can be used in the PR.9) so pressumeably it would have been just for BAe’s stock for the Warton flyers….??
More likely the MOD sold them to RR who then converted them for gas pumping. I would imagine that the 1000 was the difference between removing them and what they would get from RR.
By: TwinOtter23 - 16th February 2009 at 18:10
£1000 to have the engines…..
Typical MOD cost bizarreness…..
Sadly this type of action goes back a long way and in part arose due to activities from these days….. http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87766 🙁
By: pagen01 - 16th February 2009 at 18:06
AVPIN is the term for Iso Propyl Nitrate specifically blended for aviation use, hence the AV bit.
It’s potent old stuff alright, wasn’t a great recipe for success in the Belvedere, where the tank was fitted above the cabin!
By: mjr - 16th February 2009 at 17:57
converting the 302’s to electric start isn’t that bad really, fairly straight forward. Comet starters can bolt straight onto IPN starter mating surfaces, which takes care of the mating issue. all the engine control, LP, HF and avpin circuits can simply be de-fused. a small mod to the the High energy circuits can be done to de-couple them from the engine control automated sequence, for manual starts. As Andy says, for amateur groups its a show stopper, since the starters are circa 3-4k each, You are then looking at another 1-2k for the 120volt trolley required to run them. In terms of complexity, it’s straight forward, just not worth the cost. I believe it was trialed in the early days at Boscombe, but IPN won out for QRA duties. We looked at for ZF579, and 7-8k lay out, just wasn’t worth the hassle.
By: FMK.6JOHN - 16th February 2009 at 17:48
Andy,
I didn’t think about the electrical start system:o, aside from the astronomical cost, could you imagine the look on peoples faces when you hit the start button, only to be met with the dry whir of an electric motor instead of the spine tingling weeeeeeeeeeeeeee Pssssssssssssssst !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lightning fans would be running for the hills 😉
John.
By: Firebird - 16th February 2009 at 15:43
I don’t have anything to do with the museum aircraft but i do know this! Unfortunatly 903 doesnt have any donks fitted, apparently it was £1000 for the owner to have it with them fitted so they took them after it landed! The whole aircraft is internally waxoiled and in quite good nick. The roller blind horizon and the compass are in the archives as is the stick top to stop anybody pikying it!
As for running, no chance, the avpin tank was chisled out and emptied into a nearby pond, the fuel tanks were all drilled to let the fuel come out and god knows what else the RAF did to the poor girl!
£1000 to have the engines…..
Typical MOD cost bizarreness…..
If you think about it, with the cost of sending a crew from Binners to Elvington to demil and remove both donks etc., in hard costs you would think the cost to the new owner would have been a £1000 reduction for NOT to remove the engines etc…….:rolleyes:
The RAF didn’t need the donks anymore for the Lightning fleet, (unless they can be used in the PR.9) so pressumeably it would have been just for BAe’s stock for the Warton flyers….??
By: 320psi - 16th February 2009 at 14:22
In short……no, it’s avpin or nothing.
Sorry!!
John.
You your summing up of IPN was spot on, its not very nice either
Well not really, there is an electric start system being fitted to early Avons in Hunters, so its a possible, but the costs of reenginerring the aircraft to suit the wiring etc and housing it on the front of the each 302 would be astronomical
Forget it sorry :rolleyes:
We had to pay extra for our engines and for them not to drill the wings and rip 728 apart after she was delivered in 88.
Glad we had a wip round now
By: FMK.6JOHN - 16th February 2009 at 14:07
In short……no, it’s avpin or nothing.
Sorry!!
John.
By: Fouga23 - 16th February 2009 at 14:01
Is there any way to convert a lightning engine to start in another way then using avpin?
By: FMK.6JOHN - 16th February 2009 at 13:57
excuse my ignorance but wot is avpin exactly? Starter fuel?
Avpin is the short or slang term for iso-propyl-nitrate, if you say IPN very quickly you will see why they ended up calling it avpin.
IPN is a monopropellant and a low-sensitivity explosive, with a detonation velocity of approximately 5400 m/s, it is highly unstable and could make your day very interesting should it find a source of ignition:eek:
IPN as some know was used in the starting of the engines on the Lightning and some other aircraft types, the Avpin tank is housed in the spine just aft of the cockpit and if you see pictures of a liney stood on the aircraft with what appears to be a watering can, then he is topping up the avpin tank.
Regards,
John.
By: Fouga23 - 16th February 2009 at 13:41
http://www.rhodesianforces.org/No1sqnavpin.html
some fun avpin stories 🙂
By: Yorkie - 16th February 2009 at 13:21
excuse my ignorance but wot is avpin exactly? Starter fuel?
By: Yorkie - 16th February 2009 at 13:20
So I was right about the engines but possibly not about her running agian or even becoming live, shame she took so much stick after been demobbed:(
By: Bruce - 16th February 2009 at 12:41
the avpin tank was chisled out and emptied into a nearby pond
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
By: 320psi - 16th February 2009 at 12:37
Hi Guys, just seen this thread!
I don’t have anything to do with the museum aircraft but i do know this! Unfortunatly 903 doesnt have any donks fitted, apparently it was £1000 for the owner to have it with them fitted so they took them after it landed! The whole aircraft is internally waxoiled and in quite good nick. The roller blind horizon and the compass are in the archives as is the stick top to stop anybody pikying it!
As for running, no chance, the avpin tank was chisled out and emptied into a nearby pond, the fuel tanks were all drilled to let the fuel come out and god knows what else the RAF did to the poor girl!
The hyds are still used to raise and lower the canopy, so its not completely dead….
Ollie
Thanks Ollie,
🙂
By: FMK.6JOHN - 16th February 2009 at 12:08
Thanks for that VS, they must have deflated the oleos to make her sit right, as for the de-milling they would have done quite a bit to her, all the det charges in the seat would have been removed and the firebottles would have been either removed or drilled and the charges removed too, methyl bromide and explosives are quite harmfull to the general public!!!.
They may have also mollested the fuel lines and the electrics while they were in the engine bays just to make sure that no one tried to get her going again.
Regards,
John.
By: OllieS - 16th February 2009 at 11:27
Hi Guys, just seen this thread!
I don’t have anything to do with the museum aircraft but i do know this! Unfortunatly 903 doesnt have any donks fitted, apparently it was £1000 for the owner to have it with them fitted so they took them after it landed! The whole aircraft is internally waxoiled and in quite good nick. The roller blind horizon and the compass are in the archives as is the stick top to stop anybody pikying it!
As for running, no chance, the avpin tank was chisled out and emptied into a nearby pond, the fuel tanks were all drilled to let the fuel come out and god knows what else the RAF did to the poor girl!
The hyds are still used to raise and lower the canopy, so its not completely dead….
Ollie
By: FMK.6JOHN - 15th February 2009 at 22:10
Andy,
I think your right about 416, she was of course rescued and taken to the NATO aircraft museum.
There has been a full list of the survivors and fatalities on this forum somewhere but my searches have come to nought.
Regards,
John.
By: 320psi - 15th February 2009 at 22:04
Yorkie,
897 was rescued from Rossington but not before her wings were cut off and a JCB was halfway into her spine, there were a few others that were rescued either in cockpit form or complete airframe.
320psi will be able to fill you in with the full details.
Regards,
John.
The only other one I know that got away was 725, now with Charles Ross, or was 416 rescued as well ?
Ummmm:confused:
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February 13, 2009 at 8:00 pm