Lockheed Hudson survivors

The most significant thing is really that the war in the Pacific started some hours earlier than Pearl Harbour and this point is often overlooked in WW II history.

This is true. And I have often wondered, with the British bases coming under attack before Pearl Harbor, had any messages from there been sent to any US Command? I know that it’s been revealed that the British warned the US days before Pearl Harbor that something was up and the ‘surprise’ attack should have been expected or at least better guarded against, (in fact Pearl had been on alert and was stood down, wasn’t it? For Sunday) but I wonder if the US Commanders knew the Pacific War had begun whilst their troops in Pearl continued on their quiet Sunday morning.

Pstrany and Dave

Thanks for clearing up the timing of the RAAF’s involvement in this matter. The point I made could still be correct, regarding the Hudson being the first allied aircraft to take on the Japs. I know that a couple of P40’s got into the air during Pearl Harbour (heavens, if they hadn’t, how could the movie have been made?), but it would take a close examination of the times of each event to determine which aircraft (Hudson or P40), actually opened fire first.

Of course, the RAF? Catalina shot down earlier might have put a few shots up, which would have made it the first. The most significant thing is really that the war in the Pacific started some hours earlier than Pearl Harbour and this point is often overlooked in WW II history.

Regards

Wombat

Just to add to the discussion, I seem to remember a photo of what looked to be a derelict Hudson appearing in one of the aviation mags in the last few years. I’ve tried and failed to dig it out, but I’m sure the caption mentioned the Aleutian Islands? There may have been a bulldozer in the background and mountains behind that. Any bookworms remember it?

Amplification….

The invasion of Malsia and Singapore had been much-anticipated. No 1 Sqdn RAAF had been in Malaysia for over a year, and was posted at Kota Bharu on the north shore of Malaysia on December 6th (December 5th to us Yanks on the other side of the International Date Line) when Flight Lieutenant John Ramshaw and his crew, flyihng A-16-19 spotted the Japanese invasion fleet south of Saigon. Hudsons and Catalinas attempted to shadow the fleet through very bad weather, and a Catalina of 205 Sqdn RAF was shot down by Japanese fighters while it was searching for the Japanese fleet. As an aside, the sighting had been reported to the American government – should have been a wake-up call to our government?
No 1 Sqdn Hudsons continued to search for the Japanese fleet,discovering elements of it on December 7th (6th on the other side of the ITL in Hawaii and US) about 112 miles from Kota Bharu. The Hudson flown by Flight Lieutenant John Lockwood was the first to locate elements fo the Japanese fleet, which then immediately fired upon his aircraft. The Hudson returned to base undamaged.
HQ Far East Command decided that no action was to be taken against the Japanese “until the Japanese had committed some definite act of hostility…”
Around midnight on December 8th (Dec. 7th across the ITL) Japanese forces landed near Kota Bharu. It took some time to get the “no offensive action” ban lifted, and the Hudsons of No 1 Sqdn were dispatched individually starting at around 2:00AM to attack the Japanese invasion fleet. A-16-21 flown by Flt Lt. John Lockwood was the first to attack a few minutes thereafter, reporting two strikes on a Japanese vessel.
While it is true that Japanese forces attacked Malaysia 1 1/2 hours before the attack on Pearl Harbor, Lockwood’s attack would have come during the Pearl Harbor attack. Wilson’s account mentions that this was the first attack on Japanese forces by Commonwealth airmen.
Most of this information is based on “The RAAF Hudson Story: Book One” by David Vincent (though I also have, refer to – and love – Wilson’s book “Anson, Hudson & Sunderland in Australian Service”.)
Anybody interested in the history of the Hudson in RAAF service must get both of these books. David Vincent’s book is particularly detailed and thorough, though the two books complement each other very nicely. The only weakness to Vincent’s book is the fact that Book Two, which completes the story of the Hudson in the RAAF, has not yet been published.
As a disclaimer, I have no association or connection with either David Vincent or Stewart Wilson. I just think these are two outstanding books!

Paul

No, the ships were spotted on the 6th, and other Hudsons shadowed them for a couple of days till the early hours of the 8th Dec 41 (Australian Eastern Time) when the Japs began an assault on Kota Bharu. It was then that the Hudsons began to attack them.

It was however still 1 hour and 20 minutes before Pearl harbor was attacked.

12 Hudsons attacked all night, 2 were badly damaged, 3 badly holed.

Briefly, from Anson, Hudson and Sunderland in Australian Service by Stewart Wilson.

The Hudson’s unique place in World War II

If I have my facts and timing correct, the Hudson was the first Allied aircraft to engage the Japanese in world war II.

Whilst our American friends may claim that the war in the Pacific commenced around 7am on the 7th of December 1941, it is not so well known that RAAF Hudsons attacked Japanese invasion barges off the north eastern coast of Malaya very late in the evening of the 6th December 1941 (US time, but actually the 7th in Malaya). At the time, the RAAF was based at or near Khota Bharu and the invasion barges were approaching the Malayan coast in the vicinity. Whilst the Japs had not actually landed or attacked at that time, their intentions were clear and the RAAF attacked with some success, although some aircraft may have been lost.

I don’t remember all the facts to this event, and hope that I have my few facts correct. If I’m right, this is a little-known fact about the war in the Pacific – can any other members help out with this one?

Regards

Wombat

Thank you very much, Dennis, another piece of my captions jigsaw puzzle now slotted in.

Hawkins and Powers in Greybull, Wyoming has a Lockeed L-18 that was built as a Hudson: 41-23307, ex RAF:BW445 Mk IIIA, CF-ESJ and N4980V, now registered as N880V. It was converted to a L-18 in December of 1956.

Dennis

Talking of Hudsons does anybody know the real id of the ‘Hudson’ that was/is outside at the entrance to the Planes of Fame museum at Chino. It was in full RAF scheme and marked as, I think, AM611? Never came up with its real id.

Ooops – forgot the link!

Piccy at http://www.newtecumseth.library.on.ca/banting/database/000107a.html

I THINK that’s the tail, but there’s so little left it’s a job to tell!

Adrian

The hulk – and it’s been VERY well “souvenired” – of the aircraft that Sir Frederick Banting was killed in is on display at Musgrave Harbour in Newfoundland.
Frankly I don’t think it can count as a survivor, but no-one has mentioned it as a substantial relic.

Adrian

Excellent pic’s ! 😀

Here is the starboard view of 644?

A few more South African Venturas
1 The rare Ventura I,6066,in the ‘top’ storage yard at Swartkop
2 and 3 Port and starboard views of the Ventura GR.V,644?, also in the top storage yard.Does anyone know the full serial of this machine?
4 Ventura GR.V ,6447,at Ysterplaat.
All taken last month.

Static, for sure!
I am in fact seeking more information about this Ventura at Edmonton, such as its previous history, identification, etc., any offers from Canadian Forum members?

My records show: BuNo 33315, ex RCAF:2195 GR.V, now CF-FAV being restored by the Ventura Memorial Flight Association, Edmonton

Cheers, Dennis

Yes, it is a Lodestar. Use to be at Lanseria in a silver/light green(Comair?) colour scheme.

Actually looking at photo no one again I’m not sure that it is a Ventura.Is it a Lodestar?
Here is LodestarZS-ASN taken at Swartkop September 25th 2004

Here are a few photos of South African Venturas taken less than a month ago (September24th) at the SAAF Museum at Swartkop.
1 6120 Ventura GR.V
2 6498 VenturaGR.V
3 6112 Ventura II(in ‘as found’ display)
4 6487 Ventura GR.V in the SAAF Museum store
5 6534(painted as 6453) also in the store

Nice pics Mpacha. I like the second one very much.

At least two of the aircraft in Mark12’s photo have glazed noses, indicating they are RB-34 Lexingtons as I understand it – this different nose was the major difference between a PV-1 Ventura and an RB34 Lexington. In some services, including the RNZAF, both types were simply called Ventura to save confusion as they’re so similar otherwise.

Mark and Dave

Those are Venturas ! The SAAF Coastal Command used Ventura’s until 1959. By 1960, all were stored at AFS Snake Valley. Most being scrapped. The SAAF museum retain a few, together with a single Lodestar. SAA obtain two for technical training. One since being past on to the SAA Museum and the other being given to the “Dickie Fritz Shellhole” in Edenvale. The pictures show this example being delivered in 1985 and later in it’s original colours after being restored. This example is a Ventura PV-1 (Gr.Mk.5). It served with 23 Squadron(SAAF Coastal Command) and then post war as a VIP aircraft with 28 Squadron before becoming TS305 with the SAA Apprentice School. In 1985 she was swapped for a Harvard and now resides with the M.O.T.H’s in Edenvale(Near Johannesburg), South Africa.