Logbooks

Good evening folks, my name is Jim Trainor, I’m Canadian, and I have registered with this forum that I may thank the contributors to this thread who have posted some links that provide our family with the opportunity to continue a search for one of our father’s wartime logbooks. As a means to contribute here and to provide one viewpoint only as to the effectiveness of post-war distributions of pilot logs I will attempt to describe my father’s understanding regarding his lost records.

Dad flew with 126 Wing RCAF, primarily with 411 squadron in 1943-44 until he was given command of 401 Ram squadron in late-July of ’44. The second time he “stepped out”, during an operation in support of Market-Garden on Sept. 19, resulted in capture by the SS and eventual incarceration in Stalag Luft One for the duration of the war.

Upon his return to England he found the logbook that contained all of his flying records for the European theatre had disappeared from his personal effects which had been returned to England after his capture was confirmed. He continued to believe that his logbook had been removed by someone looking for a ‘memento’, although I have a later and vague memory of him relating that it may have been lost in the ‘purge’ of 1960 as described above, and this knowledge may have tempered his desire for a continued search. While our family became aware of the importance this logbook, I don’t know what formal steps he may have taken in search of it’s whereabouts, as he was generally a very private man regarding his wartime experiences, particularly post D-day.

My sister and I have been attempting to gather what information is available on our father’s wartime service to facilitate an understanding of his efforts for ourselves and future generations of our family. While we have reconciled ourselves to the idea that this logbook was lost long ago, I very much appreciate the opportunity these links provide to further ‘close the book’ on this aspect of his wartime experience.

Once again, sincerely, thank you! / Jim

I also tried to make contact with Leo De Vigne but with no luck.

Dave – speak to Mick B ref leo De Vigne…

For what it’s worth I copied Ron Gellatly’s log books by hand many years ago ….The copy is now held at The Helicopter Museum. I also tried to make contact with Leo De Vigne but with no luck.

Thunderbird167 wrote:

On a technical point would divulging the contents of your logbook technically breach the official secrets act especially being ex-51 Sqn ?

No. Why would it?

exmpa

Tony

I believe they are in the AIR 4 series at the National Archive. Using the Discovery search engine you can see a list of the records held.

Echo India

Thanks Echo India, had not realised it was that easy!

A brief return, to add that as well as UK National Archives holdings, RAF Flying Log Books are also held as follows in the UK…

And thanks DonClark, have emailed the RAF Museum – pity they don’t have a searchable system!

Flying Logbooks are, as has been referred to here, technically official documents. As such they are Crown property, not that of the individual. The fact that everyone retains them does not change that.

This is the reason that the logbooks of those killed in active service eventually found their way to the old MoD Repository at Hayes. It was during either the late 1970s or early 1980s that they did indeed offer them back to relatives and those that were not claimed were un-ceremonially bagged up and disposed of, despite the protestations of at least one notable aviation historian at the time who had privileged access to the facility. It is our firm belief that the logbooks of Lt Cdr Eugene Edmond DSO VC RN were amongst those disposed of as they have never surfaced since. A wanton, criminal act that quite honestly does not bear thinking about.

That some individuals leave instructions for their historically-valuable logbooks to go under the hammer in the almost certain knowledge that they will end up in a private collection probably never to see the light of day again (many museums being so cash-strapped that they can ill-afford to splash out huge sums on such items) is lamentable. Peter Twiss had always intended his logbooks to be left to FAAM Yeovilton to go with the many other items on display there (he also being a former FAA pilot himself). A photocopy was asked for at one stage but he was adamant that they would get the originals ‘in due course’. Sadly, they too went for auction and have simply disappeared.

I’m not sure this statement is correct. If the Logbook is no longer required for official purposes and you have been invited to claim it and do so and it has been released by the relevant authority then you have total possession of it. Have you any examples of the Crown asking for their wartime logbooks back? I can understand it if there was some political sensitivity in the entries in the logbooks e.g. V Force post war but if wartime ones were given to the airman themselves or their families, or the airmen and families have been asked to claim them then surely the Crown has no further claim.

A bit of further information from the MOD:-

Prior to the Second World War Flying Log Books of deceased officers and airmen were forwarded to next of kin when no longer required for official purposes. However, on the outbreak of war this practice was discontinued for the duration of hostilities. Flying Log books of missing or deceased aircrew during this period were forwarded to the RAF Central Repository at Colnbrook, Slough Bucks, where they were recorded and kept in safe custody. A slmilar practlce was observed tor the log books of personnel who were declared as prisoners of war.
In Jan 1946 authority was given for the release of the log books of members of aircrew whose service ended in one of the following ways:
(i) By discharge or release from the service.
(ii) By Death.
(iii) Subject to approval by permanent withdrawal from air crew duties.

The next of kin of deceased air crew were invited to apply for their relatives Flying Log Book.
Those Flying Log Books that remained after this at the Central Repository were retained after the war until 1960. At this point it was widely advertised to the public that the Flying Log Books still held could be claimed by airmen or their-next-of-kin. Of those left unclaimed a small number were preserved as examples, and these are now held at the National Archives in the Air 4 Series. The remainder were destroyed in late 1960.

Pete

Thank goodness this ‘Dambuster’ flying logbook ended up in a bookstore in Canada where it was spotted by a collector and saved post war![ATTACH=CONFIG]249883[/ATTACH]

I left the RAF in 1990 after 25 years and my logbooks came with me. I would say that was the case for everyone during that period and since.

exmpa
51 Sqn

I would imagine that this has been the case since for most of the existence of the RAF. On a technical point would divulging the contents of your logbook technically breach the official secrets act especially being ex-51 Sqn ?

I left the RAF in 1990 after 25 years and my logbooks came with me. I would say that was the case for everyone during that period and since.

exmpa
51 Sqn

As historian for 607 Squadron I have always encouraged the digital copying of Log Books

This has had some success as it has released the logbook for research and also enabled digital copies to be made available for family members as it is difficult to share the original log book

Had logbooks not been given to the pilots there would be many more that would not survive.

We can not turn back the clock and it is expensive to store paper documents and as time passes the awareness of the importance of the logbooks will decrease.

I am concerned that we are not paying any attention to the logbooks of the post war period.

Most of the survivors of 607 Squadron are over 80 years old as the squadron disbanded in 1957.

They may have only flown Spitfires, Vampires and Meteors in their 607 days but many went on to serve with the Regular RAF and flew through the Cold War.

Are efforts being made to document the logbooks of those who took part in the modern conflicts such as the Falklands, Bosnia, Irag, Afghanistan etc before they become lost to history

See my post in http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?140809-Eric-Winkle-Brown-s-Medals-To-Be-Sold-At-Auction

I’ve donated my father’s ATA logbook to the Maidenhead ATA Association museum where I gather any of them can be studied at ease, whereas if donated(?) to the RAF museum they have to be ordered. I still have his (& mine) civilian log books which I hope my son will take care of eventually.
Keith

After all, when they pass on where do you think that logbook will end up? only one or two places, a refuse incinerator or a landfill site!

Haven’t you missed out the obvious alternatives? Namely the auction house or eBay – depending on how noteworthy (or not) the individual is.

From the Gazette (SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, STH JUNE 1963 4823)

Queen’s Commendation for valuable service in the air

Squadron Leader Wilfred Ronald GELLATLY,
A.F.C., R.A.F. (Retired), Chief Test Pilot,
Westland Aircraft Ltd. (Fairey Aviation
Division).

From the Gazette (SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 1 JANUARY, 1954 33)

Air Force Cross
Wilfred Ronald GELLATLY (59332), Royal Air
Force.

Is this him? http://discovery.nationalarchives.go…ils/r/C3003021 Description: Rank and Name: F/Lt. B.R. Galletly, Remarks: Helicopter pilot.

No, it’s not him. I double checked last time I was at Kew. Can’t off-hand remember what this person was, but definitely not Ron Gellatly.

Lee

I think I am right in saying that, during WW2, the logbook of any airman that was lost was retained by the MOD. After the war these logbooks were offered back to next of kin. At some stage in the 50’s or 60’s the miles of shelf space that the remaining logbooks took up in storage was deemed excessive and after again being offered back to next of kin the majority were dumped, with a selection being retained for the NA. Does anyone know if there is a list anywhere of the retained logbooks?

Flying Logbooks are, as has been referred to here, technically official documents. As such they are Crown property, not that of the individual. The fact that everyone retains them does not change that.

This is the reason that the logbooks of those killed in active service eventually found their way to the old MoD Repository at Hayes. It was during either the late 1970s or early 1980s that they did indeed offer them back to relatives and those that were not claimed were un-ceremonially bagged up and disposed of, despite the protestations of at least one notable aviation historian at the time who had privileged access to the facility. It is our firm belief that the logbooks of Lt Cdr Eugene Edmond DSO VC RN were amongst those disposed of as they have never surfaced since. A wanton, criminal act that quite honestly does not bear thinking about.

That some individuals leave instructions for their historically-valuable logbooks to go under the hammer in the almost certain knowledge that they will end up in a private collection probably never to see the light of day again (many museums being so cash-strapped that they can ill-afford to splash out huge sums on such items) is lamentable. Peter Twiss had always intended his logbooks to be left to FAAM Yeovilton to go with the many other items on display there (he also being a former FAA pilot himself). A photocopy was asked for at one stage but he was adamant that they would get the originals ‘in due course’. Sadly, they too went for auction and have simply disappeared.

Pete

Edited to add
“In my searches, two important logbooks (to me) have gone missing; those of: Harald Penrose and Ron Gellatly.”

Is this him? http://discovery.nationalarchives.go…ils/r/C3003021 Description: Rank and Name: F/Lt. B.R. Galletly, Remarks: Helicopter pilot.

Last edited by snailer; 20th November 2016 at 21:10.

Sounds interesting, the guy looking for is squadron leader WR Gellatly, he was lead test pilot on the Rotodyne. He was a New Zealander and served in the RAF in North Africa flying Boston’s and road. He subsequently went to Beaulieu the early helicopter work, qualified asa test pilot by the ETPS, he led the Rotodyne and subsequently became chief test pilot at Westland.

It could be the same man, although I suspect what you have are his RAF wartime records civilian test aircrew period all keep logbooksfor MoD

I will send you a contact message, when I fathom it out.

Dave

Hello
There is an explanation from the National Archives as to what happened to them and that efforts were made for airmen to claim theirs should they wish to do so.
AIR 4 as previously mentioned:-
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2059

In 1959 the Particular Instance Paper Committee recommended the destruction, save for a few specimens, of log books remaining unclaimed in the Air Ministry despite announcements in the Press. Further announcements were then made through the Press and BBC stating that books not claimed by 15 September 1960 would be destroyed. Of the 6,400 shelf footage of log books, 20 feet were selected for preservation, aiming to illustrate: format of log books, types of flying training at home and abroad, aircrew trades, flying experience, operational flying experience, theatres of war, campaigns and operations. Also selected were: log books of distinguished pilots or members of distinguished squadrons, especially those detailing engagements with the enemy; of pilots with exceptional flying experience; and of foreign nationals flying with the RAF.

Members of the fighting services engaged in flying duties are required to keep a personal record of flights undertaken by them. These records, known as ‘flying log books’, are declared by the Regulations to be official documents but the compilers are allowed, on ceasing to be employed and after all official action has been taken, to claim their log books. In the event of the death of the compiler on service provision is made for the log books to be claimed by next of kin.

Pete

Edited to add
“In my searches, two important logbooks (to me) have gone missing; those of: Harald Penrose and Ron Gellatly.”

Is this him? http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3003021 Description: Rank and Name: F/Lt. B.R. Galletly, Remarks: Helicopter pilot.

I concur with TonyL’s comments that most were disposed of after the war.

An old aircrew friend of mine, now deceased, said that this was so and they were disposed of in huge quantities. after them having first sifted out some of the more significant ones.

Anon.

Tony

I believe they are in the AIR 4 series at the National Archive. Using the Discovery search engine you can see a list of the records held.

Echo India