Long Range Infared Guided Missiles?

Was that the ARMIGER HARM replacement?

The ARMIGER demonstrator did indeed feature dual sensors (IIR+passive radar). A pitty that the system didn’t went beyond the demonstration phase.

Was that the ARMIGER HARM replacement?

Their was a thread started by GOOGLE on future US BVR weaponry . I beleive in that threat their is also a picture of the weapon (i think a section) , I couldnt find it but i know for certain that their is a picture of the weapon on this forum .

Most high speed long range radar guided missiles have pointed noses… it is more efficient aerodynamically for highly supersonic missiles than a round nose.
A missile heading toward an intercept point will not be flying with the point of its nose pointing directly at the target unless it was a pure headon or stern shot. I would expect an IR sensor made out of a silicon chip, the size of a silicon chip with a wide FOV right at the tip of the missile would not effect by a huge amount a nose mounted radar dish… remember on a normal radar dish there is the receiver in front at the focal point of the dish anyway. The surface area of a circle means that the outer edge of the circle contains more are than the centre anyway… by increasing the diameter of a circle by 1/3rd you triple its area so by removing the centre area of the circle you are only reducing the captured signal by 1/3rd.

Considering the target might be stealthy so an IIR is going to be rather more use than any radar seeker anyway I think the loss of signal would be worth it.

As it is modern Integrated avionics take into account radar and other sensors for target aquiring , wouldnt a JSF with its APG-81 and EOTS combo be able to provide equal info to the missle ? More sensors working on the aircraft , as it is they will be more powerful then on the missiles ?

Hey, I’m sorry but I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. :confused: Would you mind clarifying that a little for me please? Cheers.

Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.

This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.

ASRAAM and datalink? Would be new to me. I know that a datalink is proposed as possible option, but it isn’t available in current versions. For the moment the ASRAAM relies on the IIR+INS combo.

But then you would loose the main benefit of a dual seeker design – flexibility and jamming resistence. Such a missile would have little benefit over a pure IR missle that is guided by the launch platform’s radar via datalink until its own seeker can take over, but would cost a great deal more because of the need for two full sized seekers, and would have shorter range because of the extra weight.

As it is modern Integrated avionics take into account radar and other sensors for target aquiring , wouldnt a JSF with its APG-81 and EOTS combo be able to provide equal info to the missle ? More sensors working on the aircraft , as it is they will be more powerful then on the missiles ?

The front section of a dual seeker missile doesn’t have to be that big, if you can discard the first seeker when the second ones takes over. How prctical would that be however?

But then you would loose the main benefit of a dual seeker design – flexibility and jamming resistence. Such a missile would have little benefit over a pure IR missle that is guided by the launch platform’s radar via datalink until its own seeker can take over, but would cost a great deal more because of the need for two full sized seekers, and would have shorter range because of the extra weight.

The front section of a dual seeker missile doesn’t have to be that big, if you can discard the first seeker when the second ones takes over. How prctical would that be however?

Multi-guidance would increase the kill probability but the front section will be big. Currently there are few such missiles, but none A-A. IIRC some US Navy Standard II version uses SARH & IR guidance.

The long range missiles that were intended for such dual seekers are quite big too. The Kh-31 and R-37 are not small missiles.

Folks,

What about the UK RED TOP that equipped the Lightening. Did it not have a very long range interception ability?

Jack E. Hammond

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What do you mean, “next gen”? Such a missile already exists, and has been in service for several years with the AdlA – the Mica IR. Lock on after launch, datalink, a true BVR IR-guided missile.

Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.

This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.

You could add the Python V to the list of operational LOAL/datalink missiles that would qualify as “near-BVR”.

Rather than having a ARH and a Passive radar homing and an IIR homing R-77 they might combine all three guidance methods in the one seeker design so the only modularity needed would be the propulsion and the choice of aerodynamic surfaces.

Multi-guidance would increase the kill probability but the front section will be big. Currently there are few such missiles, but none A-A. IIRC some US Navy Standard II version uses SARH & IR guidance.

Was that the ARMIGER HARM replacement?

wasnt their a Dual sensor German project some time back ?

What do you mean, “next gen”? Such a missile already exists, and has been in service for several years with the AdlA – the Mica IR. Lock on after launch, datalink, a true BVR IR-guided missile.

Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.

This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.

I was talking about Russian missiles, not western missiles.

Ok, so now I remember reading somewhere on here that the Russians are toying with the development of dual-sensor missiles, however, my skill at manipulating the search function on this forum remains under-developed.

I remember they were talking about dual sensors on the AS-17 when used as an anti AWACS missile and also for the R-37 in a similar role. The idea was that if the target aircraft turned off its very large radar to defeat the passive homing radar missiles seeker an alternative to active radar homing for terminal guidance was desired. When a very large radar is turned on it generates a large amount of heat which makes it a rather distinctive target.
With newer imaging IR technology passive missiles can be considered that have a database of 3D IR images of aircraft that can do a quick search of a detected target shape, identify it and choose whether it is a high priority target or not and either attack it or fly past it. Even the SS-N-2 anti ship missile was supposed to have a dual seeker, with passive radar, active radar, and IR options though the early models had either radar or IR but not both. Modern staring focal arrays have wide fields of view and do not require mechanisms to point them at targets.
Rather than having a ARH and a Passive radar homing and an IIR homing R-77 they might combine all three guidance methods in the one seeker design so the only modularity needed would be the propulsion and the choice of aerodynamic surfaces. The R-27 had the long burn R-27E models and the R-27 normal shorter range missiles. In the R-77 the shorter range models would benefit from the better terminal maneuver capability of the latice tail surfaces. Being a shorter range model the extra drag will be less important than the better turning performance during the final phase of the attack.
So standard rocket motor R-77, improved rocket motor R-77M, and (sc)ramjet models might be the three propulsion choices.

It comes up occasionally (eg. with respect to the KS-172) but I haven’t seen anything to speak of yet. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea. Perhaps the future will consist of long range missiles with search radars guiding other long range missiles to the target area which in turn will release multiple smaller missiles to attack multiple targets with multiple sensors…

Ok, so now I remember reading somewhere on here that the Russians are toying with the development of dual-sensor missiles, however, my skill at manipulating the search function on this forum remains under-developed. Does anyone remember where that comment might have come up? I’d be mighty interested in reading it again and, in any case, it seems to be relevant to this thread.

What do you mean, “next gen”? Such a missile already exists, and has been in service for several years with the AdlA – the Mica IR. Lock on after launch, datalink, a true BVR IR-guided missile.

Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.

This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.

Garry is clearly mentioning “next generation Long range”. MICA/Derby/R-73/Asraam comes under medium range. Every BVR missile automatically does not become long range missile. R-27 is long range missle while R-37 is ultra long range.

What do you mean, “next gen”? Such a missile already exists, and has been in service for several years with the AdlA – the Mica IR. Lock on after launch, datalink, a true BVR IR-guided missile.

Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.

This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.

Okay well Garry was talking specifically about Russian missiles so for them if this come about it will be next gen. Please chill a little. This thread has maintained a pretty civil tone so far. When compared to the Su-30 one above its chalk and cheese. Post your information and leave the attitude somewhere else.

Dan

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To have a long range IR guided missile is not impossible… the next gen imaging IR missile could easily be lock on after launch with a datalink back to the launch aircraft allowing the pilot to launch the weapon towards the target with mid flight course ….

What do you mean, “next gen”? Such a missile already exists, and has been in service for several years with the AdlA – the Mica IR. Lock on after launch, datalink, a true BVR IR-guided missile.

Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.

This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.

^^ Damn straight that was a good analysis! Thanks, everyone.