Looking for 'interesting' Spitfire schemes

I think I missed something…. such as which one and where (from Mark12’s reply I’m deducing that the paintwork is already dry)?

http://www.classicaerothruxton.com/

I think I missed something…. such as which one and where (from Mark12’s reply I’m deducing that the paintwork is already dry)?

Disregard the above. Search function and a helpful forum member has cleared up the fog & confusion!

Back on topic: I’ve always liked MK732 as ‘H-25’ so here’s a photo.

A Dutch liveried two seater?? That is something I would appreciate! The question is, will it be in RAF Camo with Dutch roundels and numbers as delivered, the all-over silver with black anti-glare similar to what MK732 now wears or perhaps the all-over orange example as operated by Schreiner as a target-tug?

:

Archer,

It is painted in RAF Camou, Dutch roundels and H-99.

Mark

My favourite would be for the first option.

Your wish is being granted 🙂

A Dutch liveried two seater?? That is something I would appreciate! The question is, will it be in RAF Camo with Dutch roundels and numbers as delivered, the all-over silver with black anti-glare similar to what MK732 now wears or perhaps the all-over orange example as operated by Schreiner as a target-tug?

My favourite would be the first option. Somehow I find that the overall silver scheme becomes a bit boring to my eyes, but perhaps that’s because we now have a Spitfire, Beech 18 and Catalina flying around in it over here.

The best resource for Dutch Spitfire schemes is Harry v/d Meer’s book as mentioned by Mark12 above. I’ve got my copy stashed away somewhere, might get it out today or tomorrow :rolleyes:

The marking on your photo of MJ271 as MH424 (H-53) is from the Netherlands East Indies 118 Squadron in 1944.The now silver MK732 (3W-17) marking is from Twente 322 Squadron, from 1951.

Just to be precise. 😉

Mennie,

I favour 322 Squadron at Semarang N.E.I. post November 1948.

Source:- Harry van der Meer.

Mark

PS

MH424 sold from RAF stock to the Dutch on 5 September 1946

The Dutch however with almost identical markings to the Czechs, and Mk IX equipped, did have a few Mk XVI’s for ground instructional training. The Dutch Mk IX’s were most certainly Dark Green and later Silver

Mark

The marking on your photo of MJ271 as MH424 (H-53) is from the Netherlands East Indies 118 Squadron in 1944.
The now silver MK732 (3W-17) marking is from Twente 322 Squadron, from 1951.

Just to be precise. 😉

Fascinating stuff, folks.

The interest is in Vickers-Supermarine builds of the two seaters, so the stuff on them is most useful, and the Russians, while fascinating, are a diversion (not that we can’t continue with them too!). Thanks for the offer Jan, but I won’t take you up on it this time – but I’m sure there’ll be another…

As regarding the other items, thanks for the input. The nature of the question I’ve been asked is for ‘proper’ XVIs high and low, rather than any ‘similar’ Mk.IX, though.

Keep it coming!

Thanks for that Mark, yes, that’s the one that’s in quite a number of books. Do you think it’s a specially-moulded rear canopy? It looks a bit shorter (and is presumably slightly narrower) than the front canopy.

Any ideas on number converted?

Mike,

I do not know the numbers involved.

With Mk IX deliveries to Russia commencing April/May 1944, it is hard to see a two seater being designed and developed, even in Wartime conditions, in less than six months.

I suspect that perhaps between 20 and 50 may have been so converted of the 1185 IX’s delivered – a SWAG estimate.

I can see no point in engineering a new canopy, retooling etc. I would be as sure as you can be from photographs that the rear canopies were sourced from the spares. You can see in one particular shot that I have that the rear hoop is a poor match profile to the adjacent fuselage section and the hoop still carries the cut out for the mast aerial.

Information on all aspects of Russian Spitfires is still very sparse and it is one of the areas that I hope will open up in the coming years.

Just as those ‘squidgy’ original shots from the albums of German servicemen, that make such big money on ebay, let’s hope for similar from the former USSR.

Mark

Mark,

Do you have any photos of Soviet 2-seater conversions that you can post here? Any idea how many were converted?

Mike,

I have several prints of Russian two seaters.

This is the best and most widely published.

Mark

A side-view of a two-seat Russian Spitfire IX can be found in Air International, Vol 24, Issue One (January 1983), p. 41. And, just as Mark12 mentioned, it is overall dark green rather than black. The caption states: “A two-seat conversion of the Spitfire IX made in the Soviet Union by the No 1 Aircraft Depot, Leningrad, in 1945.”

The Finnish aviation historian Carl-Fredrik Geust has written several books on the Soviet Air Force during WW II, including Red Stars 1939-1945 (1995) ISBN 952-5026-01-9. From memory, this book contains a photo or two of this particular Spitfire IX. I had a copy, but I regrettably sold it four years ago! However, Carl-Fredrik Geust can most likely supply more information on Russian Spitfires. Mark12 and JDK, PM me if you need contact information for Mr. Geust.

Regards,

Jan

Jan,

Thanks. I have all his books relevant to the subject here, lend lease to Russia, and have been in contact with him for some time.

mark

A side-view of a two-seat Russian Spitfire IX can be found in Air International, Vol 24, Issue One (January 1983), p. 41. And, just as Mark12 mentioned, it is overall dark green rather than black. The caption states: “A two-seat conversion of the Sptifire IX made in the Soviet Union by the No 1 Aircraft Depot, Leningrad, in 1945.”

The Finnish aviation historian Carl-Fredrik Geust has written several books on the Soviet Air Force during WW II, including Red Stars 1939-1945 (1995) ISBN 952-5026-01-9. From memory, this book contains a photo or two of this particular Spitfire IX. I had a copy, but I regrettably sold it four years ago! However, Carl-Fredrik Geust can most likely supply more information on Russian Spitfires. Mark12 and JDK, PM me if you need contact information for Mr. Geust.

Regards,

Jan

What about Ezer Weizmann’s all-black Mk XI (a mark XVI as near as dammit), preserved at the Israeli Air Force Museum at Hatzerim?
As Weizmann was, I believe, using the aircraft as his personal hack during the Six day war of 1967, does that qualiy this as the last sort-of operational Spitfire?
Met him briefly in Liverpool in the 70s, but didn’t have the chance for the chinwag I’d have liked. But at least I shook his hand. Ditto Curtis le May in the 80s.
No more name dropping!

William

PS Picture scavenged from the internet. Apologies if there’s any copyright issue.

Sorry to take it slightly off topic, but wouldn’t the Chakra roundels also be applicable to the Mk.XVIIIs that came out of India? How about it TFC?

Suggested and rejected. 🙂

Mark

Sorry to take it slightly off topic, but wouldn’t the Chakra roundels also be applicable to the Mk.XVIIIs that came out of India? How about it TFC?

Two different aircraft, or a transposition of the serial?

Two different aircraft.

Mark

An Indian two seater, particularly the original livery, would be pretty unique but unlikely I’m afraid.

Mark

Two different aircraft, or a transposition of the serial?

Mark12,

I based the “overall-black” colour scheme on the memory of a profile in an old issue of Air International. I’ll see if I can find the issue when I get back home. However, if you say overall dark green, I do not disagree. From memory, there’s a photo of a Russian Spitfire IX twin-seat conversion in one of Carl-Fredrik Geust’s books on Soviet aircraft. Can’t remember which, though.

As for frustrated Spitfire customers, Sweden was offered Tr. IX trainers, but declined.

Regards,

Jan

Mk IX UTI

Russian two-seaters.

Well unless ‘Jan’ can show us differently I suspect they were overall Dark Green rather than Black.

Now we have three Russian Mk IX wrecks in the UK, PT879, RK858 and SM639. All are destined to be restored to flight in the course of time.

It is not on record as to whether the Russian conversions actually had controls in the rear cockpit, but I suspect not.

Now how about one of these restorations, in Russian livery, fitted out with a rear cockpit for passenger flying that would readily convert back to a single place without having the ‘short nose’/’long back’ look that we have seen previously on TE308 and currently on MJ772, both ex Irish Air Corps.

The best of both worlds…but would the CAA allow it?

Mark

Thanks cdp, you are right.

Acording to Osprey’s website

Osprey was established in 1968. It was owned by Berkshire Printing, part of Brooke Bond, the tea company. The company was formed to publish Aircam Aviation, its first series, the brainchild of Dick Ward, the leading aviation illustrator. The series grew out of his work on the collectable cards which were then packaged with Brooke Bond tea. The first Osprey title, published in 1969, was Aircam Aviation Series.1: North American P-51D Mustang in USAAF-USAF Service. This set the Osprey style of illustrated information books combining detailed and authoritative text, colour and black & white artwork, and photographs in uniform series formats.