Loss of British Warbirds to the USA

Mum was clearing out some of my late Dad’s stuff this week and found a book which she gave me called “Oshkosh: The World’s Biggest Aviation Event” (1990, Osprey Aerospace). It has a photo of the Weeks Mosquito at Oshkosh (doesn’t say which year) with the engines being run up. Did Kermit Weeks himself get rated to fly the Mossie at US airshows, etc., or did he employ a British pilot? Just wondering.

I think we should add another angle into this discusion, that is the “moral home” of a object. By this I mean the fact that a country did not build an aircraft of that a battle did not take place “Overhead” should not preclude a country from having an example of said aircraft (Are you with me?.. Good!)
A prime example of this is the Brewster Buffalo aquired by the museum at Pensecola. The Finns, British and Austrailians all have a stronger moral case for having an example of that type than the American Navy. The same goes for the B-24 at Duxford what better place for that aircraft than at the main U.K. memorial to the US forces?
But on the other hand a Mosquito in the USAF museum is a fitting memorial to the men who flew them in USAF service. I know that we lost all our Mosquitos eventualy but we were going to any way, a sixty year old wooden aircraft , of that complexity was not going to last forever. The USAFM one will .
I still stand by my earlier coment that we have done better out of the two way trade than the Americans.

Rgds Cking

Thanks for the correction James, I am not out to offend anyone.

I don’t think what you said was particularly offensive, perhaps just under-informed. There are plenty of excellent books nowadays on the Commonwealth Allied efforts in the Pacific which should clarify if you chose to read further.

As far as I am concerned, the fight that the British and their Allies fought in India and Burma, etc, are not part of the Pacific war theatre. I see it quite seperate, another theatre all together, the “Indian sub-continent theatre”. After all, it’s nowhere near the Pacific, it was fought on continental land mass bordered by the Indian Ocean. The Japanese were a common enemy in both theatres, and some of the Allied nations fought in both too, but the tactics were different, the command was different, the nature of war was different, it’s a whole different thetare as much as North Africa was not part of the European theatre of war (in my eyes anyway). What do others think about this?

I do still stand by what I said about indebtedness though. Being indebted makes it sound like we should sink to our knees in thanks, I’ve seen the size of Setters feet, I’m most certainly not getting in front of them.

The war was such that it had to be fought by anyone who believed in freedom from oppression and tyranny, whether British, Kiwi, Indian, whoever. It was not a load of subservient nations towing the line and joining a British war. It was essentially as much about saving the world as it was a country on the other side of the world.

There are many reasons why the Empire joined the fight. And many reasons why they shouldn’t have too. In New Zealand’s case it may well be seen as a miracle we were even in the war as half our War Cabinet, including the second wartime PM Peter Fraser (1940-45) were contientous objectors in WWI and had been locked up for it! Yet they were all for war against oppression, as they saw the justice in fighting the Nazis as opposed to their perceived senslessness of the previous war.

I have also heard it said the only reason the first wartime PM Michael Joseph Savage decided to “Where she goes, we go” with Britain was we needed to stay in sweet due to lucrative trade deals. Disregarding this, New Zealanders were well aware of the situation in Europe and the Pacific and knew the oppression of freedom had to be stopped.

Patriotism to Britain was certainly part of it too I suppose. Whilst Savage was an Aussie and Fraser was a Scot, their people, the New Zealanders, were then also British, that was the nationality of the people of this country. So I guess that’s another reason to fight for Britain, as it was ‘home’. One could debate all the angles and still come up with the fact that we were there, other Empire countries were also there, and it was our war as much as a British war. We fought for King and Country – Britain’s king, our country.

Britain does owe us, much in fact. And we equally owe them. Together we won. Had the Empire stayed away, Britain would have fallen like a pack of cards, and the Empire countries would have quickly followed.

I think Charley’s attitude is correct, the veterans of the Empire nations and the Allies are quite entitled to have the war prizes and the active reminders like Spitfires or P40’s at airshows, etc, from the war they helped to win. They have much to take pride in, and to tell us from the next generations.

For the likes of New Zealand to have current ownership/custodianship/guardianship of some of the British (and US) aircraft types our men flew in the war (and also the tanks in our museums, we have no ships!!) is a just reward for a country and for the individuals for their successes of such campaigns this country succeeded in and helped to win – El Alamein, Tobruk, the Atlantic, the Solomons, Italy, the Battle of Britain, aerial night bombing, and many others where they fought and succeeded and their comrades never returned from.

I note Colin has taken little part in the debate he started. I guess the replies have well and truly put his notions to rest.

I made the earlier comment about GB owing somethign to other countries. To clarify, I don’t think we necessarily owe a debt to their governments but we do owe a debt to their veterans who chose to risk their lives. So that’s why I have no objection to the remaining veterans and their families getting to see some “British” historic aircraft in their skies. In return, there are plenty of P51s, a P47 and a B17 (amongst others) to see here. Seems fair to me.

The Sunderland – Well Just think about the cost of operating the Sunderland and sally B plus a few other UK historic aircraft and then think about the costs being poured into the Vulcan – misplaced priorities?

Hear, Hear!!!
Not being from the UK, I know I don’t have any imput and (I’m sure you’ll tell me that), but the lack of aviation groups having a cohesive plan has really hurt the UK’s historic AC movement. (Of course, The US doesn’t have one eaither..but it seems to have more money and people so at the end of the day, everything is fairly well looked after over here).

Sure it would be nice to see and hear a Vulcan fly for a few years (My memories of seeing them fly at US airshows in the 70s is still a highlight) but wouldn’t the money/time/talent be better spent preserving UK aviation heritage in the long run. Flying Sunderland, Mossies, Beaufighters….maybe even rebuild a Sterling or Halifax?

Anyway I like my Spitfire..

Oi mister, can I see it. (translation) G’day mate, Have you got any pics of your Spitty?

Thanks for the correction James, I am not out to offend anyone.

I do still stand by what I said about indebtedness though. Being indebted makes it sound like we should sink to our knees in thanks, I’ve seen the size of Setters feet, I’m most certainly not getting in front of them.

Did any of the Commonwealth Countries opt out of WW2, I can’t think of any sat here at my desk. I guess the respective governments of Canada, Australia or New Zealand could have opted to have stayed out of the European war, and concentrated closer to home.

Australia has turned up for Britain’s wars for scant return for a century. We may politely differ on this one. It all depends on where one stands.

No I agree, the ANZACS and Canadians have been there for the UK in times of need, and have been treated terribly, especially when you look at the cost in lives at battles such as Gallipoli or Dieppe. And like I’ve said, the UK and the World should be indebted to those who served, and especially those who lost their lives, but thankful that the UK has such worthy Allies.

Aren’t the Australians standing side by side with the Brits and Yanks again at this present time ?

My comment about the Far East playing second fiddle to the European theatre was meant to be in relation to the forces fighting in that theatre calling themselves the “Forgotten Army”, it was not in anyway meant to mean that the war out in the Far East was any less important (In my eyes) than the war in Europe.

???
Ian, your understanding of the history of the Pacific war is shaky in the extreme. Neither Canada nor Australia had much to gain from being in the European war, and the commitment by Australia to Britain, when Britain failed to provide (for good reason, but failed nonetheless) its commitment to Imperial Defence, was remarkably over-generous. New Zealand had nothing to gain, and a lot of lives to lose.

Even though the Far East tends to play second fiddle to the European War,

In your eyes, perhaps. It was a bit close to home for us. It is remarkable that the Australian commitment in Europe stayed as high as it did after ’41 and ’42.

British Forces fought side by side with it’s Commonwealth cousins, and most probably helped to stem or at the very least delay the Japanese from invading Australia and New Zealand.

Not at all. I don’t want to degenerate the great efforts made by the British and the Dutch in the Pacific, but Singapore stands all too prominantly as the pinnacle of the British failure. Britan’s forces defendfing Australia were annihilated, sunk, shot down and captured. More Dutch made it to Australia to fight on than Britons. British work in Burma and in the defence of India was more effective, but useless to Australia. Perhaps you’d like to do a 1943, 1944 and 1945 aircraft carrier count in the Pacific? I’m personally appreciative of the British efforts, but they were, I’m afraid, tiny compared to the US.

So are they indebted to the UK, I don’t think so.

Australia has turned up for Britain’s wars for scant return for a century. We may politely differ on this one. It all depends on where one stands.

They were all in it together.

Absolutely.

Anyway I like my Spitfire..

There’s no doubt mistakes were made, and at times the wrong things said, I just disagree that the UK is in-debted as such.

Grateful and thankful to have Allies yes, but not “in-debted”.

EN830, let’s not go there. Many Australians fought for and died etc in service of our Pommy mates only to be told by one Winnie Churchill that all would be OK because “we have Singapore”. When that failed he said that we will help ‘after’ we sort out AH. Thank God for the USA in 1942….

I can’t help thinking that we owe the people of USA and the Commonwealth countries an historic debt.

I don’t quite see it that way, yes we owe the people who fought and inparticular those who died, a debt for the freedom we have today. However it was inevitable that the US and many of the Commonwealth Countries would have been drawn into the war in any case. If the UK had succumbed in 1940 and Hitler had been able to throw the full force of his armed forces against the Russians, he most probably would have thundered across Russia. Leaving only a short 51 mile hop across the Bearing Straights into North America.

You could say the Americans owe the UK a debt for hanging on alone for another 12 months to give them the chance to prepare themselves.

Even though the Far East tends to play second fiddle to the European War, British Forces fought side by side with it’s Commonwealth cousins, and most probably helped to stem or at the very least delay the Japanese from invading Australia and New Zealand. So are they indebted to the UK, I don’t think so. They were all in it together.

Debt to those who dies yes, historical debt to the Americans and Commonwealth Countries, no, they deserve our thanks and gratitude for being alongside the UK in the “Worlds” hour of need, but I don’t think we are indebted in anyway.

The Cat for HARS was flown all the way from Spain to be preserved in Australia as a flying memorial. A second Cat was recently imported into Western Australia to go on display also as a static memorial to the Cat operators in WW2 who flew from Perth. Both of these fine recovery efforts help the cause. If someone wants to pull an XYZ out of Russia/PNG/Alaska etc etc then go for it. The world is better for the time and investment of those who make it happen…

I can’t help thinking that we owe the people of USA and the Commonwealth countries an historic debt so I don’t begrudge them a few historic airframes. I am also aware that it is only thanks to the USA and Canada that we still have examples of certain historic aircraft in existence, most especially a Typhoon.

Sally B is the only flying representation of the American Air Forces in Britain.

Don’t you count the multitudes of P51D and P51B Mustangs? Or the P47 Thunderbolt? Or several other dozen aircarft from Beechs to Harvards to Piper Cubs etc., flying today in Britain and painted to represent servive in the American Air Forces in Britain?

and the last flying boat to cross a major ocean.

Well… off the top of my head…

The NZ based Catalina crossed a fair chunk of the Indian Ocean on its way to NZ in 1994. The story of the journey is here
http://www.catalina.org.nz/African%20Cat%20to%20Kiwi%20Cat.htm

There was a Grumman Mallard flying boat that flew across the Pacific from the USA to NZ for the 1998 Wanaka airshow too.

And how about the Russion Beriev A-40 Albatross jet flying boats, have they crossed oceans since the Sunderland did?

As ever the whole argument comes down to Money and regulation, I would rather see an aircraft restored and flying in another country than rotting and grounded here, at least that then gives hope that either the aircraft will return at some point (visit or Perm), or that it might set precedent to convince the CAA that they are safe to fly.

Thunder City is a good example of this, I am glad that there are Lightnings and Bucaneers flying in SA rather than rotting in a shed in Cranfield, especially after all of the work that was put into that Lightning before it was crated down there. I am hoping that at some point I can blag a business trip to SA, and extend by a day to get over there to see them.

What we need is more avaiation-nuts winning the lottery, if I won, once I had taken care of domestics to offset any ear-ache :rolleyes: , would set to work replacing my RC Model squadron with the real thing….I suppose I had better start doing it!

Simple solution – some folks need to put their money where their mouth is! We live in a democratic society [I’m lying about that!], so free trade is allowed. What is an aviation icon anyway???

So’s ML407, and kills by a New Zealander IIRC. Where was Carolyn Grace from again?

And your point is? I think I covered this in the remainder of my post, which you have chosen not to quote.

Its a global village people. Get used to it.

She is a known combat veteran and has kills to her name.

So’s ML407, and kills by a New Zealander IIRC. Where was Carolyn Grace from again?