Lufthansa to order 747-8 Passenger Variant

Please can you tell us what aircraft are to be used in 5-10 years on those routes that have become “doable” because of the A330/A340/777?

For the growing A330 routes an airline would rather prefer to upsize to a A350-900 or a 787-10 if it wants more capacity (something like a 25% increase in PAX with added range) . If the airline wants to further upsize then it can go for the A350-1000 which adds another 20% or near abouts . An airline can also increase frequency .

For The airlines that operate the 777 family they can upsize to the bigger 777 varients and add more freq with them ( Like BA is doing with its LHR-JFK route) , when you have 250 seater 787-8 being used for 7000nm flights you have more options then just increase capacity per jet per route , you have greater options with frequency.

Or perhaps you are anticipating zero growth and/or a sudden desire to not go down the “green” route and start added runways at all airports?

There wont be zero growth infact new pairs and routes would be made possible with aircrafts such as the 787 and A350 due to their potent RASM-CASM , airlines that have embraced the A330/340,777 families and these families have sold close to 2000 jets (1800 some) have shown that if smaller aircrafts can compete (I use compete and not better) on CASM as compared to bigger aircrafts then they would rather prefer the smaller aircrafts on accounts of better RASM , flexibility and lesser risk . The 777300ER and its equivilant A340 varients are a perfect example , although they dont beat the 744 interms of CASM however they come very close thereby being prefered by airlines on accounts of better RASM , lesser risk etc etc , the new A350-1000 will be another banging aircraft it would most likely be very competitive with the A380-8 and the 748 interms of CASM and thereby cause a lot of the airlines to think about using it due to the better RASM it generates for them , moreover we still have to look out for the post 2015-2020 timeframe where technology can advance even farther.

The 748 and A380-8 wont be the CASM leaders for long , infact i see the A350-1000 being very CASM competitive against both these aircrafts ( i use the word competitive and not better) , however the A380 has an advantage of being the smallest aircaft of its designed family , the A380-9 (if ever build) will be the King of CASM as they say , however there would only be a no. of routes where it would be able to provide good RASM to justify stuffing in 700 or so PAX .

The problem for the A380-900 is going to arise if boeing decides to pursue the Y3 which would be (if ever happens) in the 2015-2020 timeframe , a 350-450 seater (effective seats and not like the 77W which stufs PAX in) twin would be very CASM competitive speacially if it is a second generation CFRP fues,wing etc etc .

The long haul market has fragmented as is evident from aircrafts like the A330,A340,777 etc being so popular for long haul flights

Please can you tell us what aircraft are to be used in 5-10 years on those routes that have become “doable” because of the A330/A340/777? Or perhaps you are anticipating zero growth and/or a sudden desire to not go down the “green” route and start added runways at all airports?

I count 4 B747-8 as Boeing Business Jet. Some sorces suggest or state that the first “UFO” is the Qatar Government. It has also been suggested that the unidentified customer may be Saudi Arabian Airlines, but the article quoted does not seem to confirm this. Planes purchased through the Boeing Business Jet division are delivered in “green” condition meaning there is no interiors and external livery paint is not applied.

The 4 BJ’s havent been listed as UFO’s on boeing’s website as they have been grouped together as sold to the BBJ devision (and will roll out as green aircrafts over to LT) , the 5 UFO’s ordered this week (between last thursday and this) are over and above the 4 BJ’s that were booked as the first orders for the 747-8I .

“Agenda 2010”

Can’t wait to see the A380 and B747-8 in LH’s new livering markings flying side by side in 2010+.

Great news for LH, Boeing – and also for Airbus!

Enter site and click video!
http://www.newairplane.com/747/en-US/multimedia/Video/Video02
😮 😎 🙂

@bring_it_on
I count 4 B747-8 as Boeing Business Jet. Some sorces suggest or state that the first “UFO” is the Qatar Government. It has also been suggested that the unidentified customer may be Saudi Arabian Airlines, but the article quoted does not seem to confirm this. Planes purchased through the Boeing Business Jet division are delivered in “green” condition meaning there is no interiors and external livery paint is not applied.

Ok,ok, the title “Agenda 2010” is an insider!

LOL:D

i was Talking to a boeing exec in march of this year and he was confident that by the end of 2006 they would have something like 50 orders total for the 747-8 family ( it was launched about 13 months ago) however they seem to be at something like 78 aircrafts and there is still some time to go !!

What has gone unnoticed through this entire LH 748 order is that boeing has also taken FIRM ORDERS of 5 748’s from a UFO .

Wow! First they think they have found evidence of a stream on mars, now those bloody Martians aren’t contempt with their own crafts so they are coming here and buying ours as well! :p 😀

Sorry, couldn’t resist. Yes, good news the orders are starting to coming in for the 8i.

What has gone unnoticed through this entire LH 748 order is that boeing has also taken FIRM ORDERS of 5 748’s from a UFO .

The 747 was a great plane, one of the greatest, but it has had it’s time and belongs in the history books. Boeing should be focusing on a new VLA, new tech, new innovations, not regurgitating 40 year old designs.

Why would boeing spend 12-15 billion dollars on a market that most of the think tanks regard as a shrinking one ? The long haul market has fragmented as is evident from aircrafts like the A330,A340,777 etc being so popular for long haul flights (where the earlier 747 queen used to rule ) , the fragmentation will be further enhanced by the aircrafts such as the 787 and the A350 .

I’ve been flying on 747’s for 30 years and I want something new damn it!

And why do you want a new aircraft ? the 747-8 is offering a lot of the goodies that you will be seeing in the 787 and A350 like Mood lighting , cabin pressure down to 7000ft (instead of 8000ft) , Wireless-IFE etc etc , it is offering state of the art engines taken from the 787 family (bleed air versions) . All in all the 748 is quite a decent aircraft and a damn good competitor to the A380 (specially considering that boeing is only spending 3-4 billion in developing the family instead of 15 billion and rising ) . Aircraft manufacterers dont offer new airplanes because passengers want to fly in something fancy but build them so that the market buys them and the direct customer for boeing and airbus are the airlines .

I don’t like seeing the market rewarding Boeing for taking the easy way out, but one can only imagine Lufthansa got these things for a steal.

Market doesnt give a squat about rewarding or not rewarding it will buy an aircraft if it sees it fitting its buisness model and earning profits and for nothing else . You had the best damn passenger liner ever made and look how well the market demanded to it !!!

I really consider this a second rate new aircraft, rehashing the interior or adding some fuselage plugs and what not don’t make it no dreamliner.

The interior is a lot more then just rehashing , they have changed cabin pressure , introduced mood lighting (taken directly from the 787) and made some other asthetic changes , the real eff. comes from the new generation engines . What you are looking for is perhaps a new CFRP fues,CFRP wings , bleedless engines etc maybe because you were disapointed with the A380 not having those features yet only EIS’n a few months before the 787 which has these features however the market just doesnt have the push as it used to for a VLA speacially when more then 1/3 of the market (forecast) is for the Freighter version where most of the cabin enhancing features are absolutely useless . Airbus predict themselves selling 700 A380 by 2022 (according to their own financial officer) ( i think that is way too optimistic) yet even if they manage to sell those 700 frames ( ammounts to something like 600 frames in 7-8 years) the IRR would only be 13% as opposed to 19-20% when they started the project . Now even if boeing jumps in do you think that a market that according to most isnt bigger the 1000 aircrafts (most outside airbus) needs two players spending 30 billion developing aircrafts???

What is the Lufthansa 747-800 seatmap like?

Probably too early !!

Crikey… the order hasn’t even gone through yet! Give it some time before asking such details

Mayrhuber already says that “in the emphasis mine Lufthansa configuration, the plane will be capable of carrying around 400 passengers”

What is the Lufthansa configuration supposed to mean? There are 4 different Lufthansa configurations for exact same 747-400 frame… which are capable of carrying 390, 368, 351 and 330 passengers. So, what does stating around 400 passengers tell about Lufthansa or 747-800?

What is the Lufthansa 747-800 seatmap like?

The curent 747-400 seatmaps all agree in that:

First is on upper deck, 16 seats

Nosecone is Business.

The old maindeck accommodation versions are 64C/310Y, 78C/274Y and 99C/234Y. New is 80C/234Y… total 330 seats.

With old C, 14 C can replace 36 Y, then 21 more C replace 40 Y. New C having same shoulder room but more pitch replaces 99 C with 80 C.

So… Where does Lufthansa put 70 seats in 747-800?

Upper deck 4 m stretch – since LH F pitch is 2,3 m, this is slightly not enough to add 2 rows…

Lower deck 5,5 m stretch.
And galleys removed to attic… Do the attic galleys need service doors?

Crikey… the order hasn’t even gone through yet! Give it some time before asking such details

Seatmap?

What is the Lufthansa 747-800 seatmap like?

The curent 747-400 seatmaps all agree in that:

First is on upper deck, 16 seats

Nosecone is Business.

The old maindeck accommodation versions are 64C/310Y, 78C/274Y and 99C/234Y. New is 80C/234Y… total 330 seats.

With old C, 14 C can replace 36 Y, then 21 more C replace 40 Y. New C having same shoulder room but more pitch replaces 99 C with 80 C.

So… Where does Lufthansa put 70 seats in 747-800?

Upper deck 4 m stretch – since LH F pitch is 2,3 m, this is slightly not enough to add 2 rows…

Lower deck 5,5 m stretch.
And galleys removed to attic… Do the attic galleys need service doors?

Not a fan of the 747-8, I had rather hoped the program would get canned. The 747 was a great plane, one of the greatest, but it has had it’s time and belongs in the history books. Boeing should be focusing on a new VLA, new tech, new innovations, not regurgitating 40 year old designs. I’ve been flying on 747’s for 30 years and I want something new damn it! I don’t like seeing the market rewarding Boeing for taking the easy way out, but one can only imagine Lufthansa got these things for a steal.

I really consider this a second rate new aircraft, rehashing the interior or adding some fuselage plugs and what not don’t make it no dreamliner.

The 747-8 is meant as a gap filler. The gap that exists between the 744/A346 and the A380. Its not meant to be a direct challenger to the A380 as Boeing have repeatedly stated they do not see the A380 sized aircraft market being big enough to spend 10 to 15 Billion $ on their own competitor.

Instead, Boeing have done the right thing and updated a current airframe. So they can focus on a market that is assured to bring them a rather good ROI, thats what the 787 is all about.

Not a fan of the 747-8, I had rather hoped the program would get canned. The 747 was a great plane, one of the greatest, but it has had it’s time and belongs in the history books. Boeing should be focusing on a new VLA, new tech, new innovations, not regurgitating 40 year old designs. I’ve been flying on 747’s for 30 years and I want something new damn it! I don’t like seeing the market rewarding Boeing for taking the easy way out, but one can only imagine Lufthansa got these things for a steal.

I really consider this a second rate new aircraft, rehashing the interior or adding some fuselage plugs and what not don’t make it no dreamliner.

I think Lufthansa Cargo could order the 777-200F as an MD-11F replacement. LH Cargo is the only part of Lh that operates the MD-11, and an order for 20 units would mean that commonality is not a problem.

I have not heard of an A340-600F program

Commonality has never been an absolute priority for Lufthansa.
They traditionaly operate a mixed fleet so that Lufthansa Technik get experience with maintaining as many different types of engine and airframes as possible thus widening their customer base. A very clever tactic imo.

Anyway, I see the 772LRF being a strong contender for the LHC fleet. The A330F won’t have the guts for what LHC needs and as you said theres no A346F on the cards.

I think Lufthansa Cargo could order the 777-200F as an MD-11F replacement. LH Cargo is the only part of Lh that operates the MD-11, and an order for 20 units would mean that commonality is not a problem.

I have not heard of an A340-600F program

Here she is in LH colors –

did Lufthansa ever at any stage consider procuring the 777-300ER for their capacity needs, esp. for an a/c in-between the A340-600 and A380.

They probably did however it doesnt fit into the scheme of things as they allready operate the A340 so there are commonality issues speacially when the order is as small as adding only 7 aircrafts , The 777 would have offered more logisitical changes and once you order the 747-8I you really dont need a 77W to fill in the gap ( not a wide enough gap) between the A340 and the 747-8I . I expect further LH orders of the F varient in the future .

that Lufthansa have got some brand new toys to play with, please put some decent entertainment system in them

I second that , got a flight i have to catch from LAX to FRA And I am not really looking forward to the entertainment onboard!!

Kudos to Boeing for launching their 747-800i with a blue chip airline, a question though if I may, did Lufthansa ever at any stage consider procuring the 777-300ER for their capacity needs, esp. for an a/c in-between the A340-600 and A380.

p.s. now that Lufthansa have got some brand new toys to play with, please put some decent entertainment system in them:) .

this should settle it

the order is for 20 747-8’s and 7 A340’s from airbus

Supervisory Board approves orders for 27 new aircraft
At its meeting today, the Lufthansa Supervisory Board approved orders for a total of 27 new aircraft. Twenty of those orders are for new long-range Boeing 747-8 jets, with deliveries scheduled to begin in 2010. A further seven Airbus A340-600 long-haul aircraft will be joining the fleet from 2008. Lufthansa has also taken out options on a further twenty of the B747-8 type. With the order placements, Lufthansa is underpinning its planned growth in intercontinental traffic and, simultaneously, replacing some of the existing aircraft in the fleet.

“With aircraft types in the B747 series from Boeing, on the one hand, and others from the A330/A340/A380 family from Airbus, on the other, Lufthansa is ideally equipped to strengthen and expand its leading position in intercontinental traffic,” said Wolfgang Mayrhuber, Chairman of the Executive Board of Deutsche Lufthansa AG. The orders reflect Lufthansa’s growth and profitability targets. “By modernising the fleet, the new aircraft will bring further gains in efficiency as well as reduce fuel and operating costs. Both aircraft types are sustainable investments in ecological efficiency and add greater weight to Lufthansa’s active commitment to environmental protection,” said Mayrhuber. And he emphasised: “Today’s decision on the fleet underscores Lufthansa’s clear commitment to customer orientation and profitable growth as well as the deep sense of responsibility it brings to bear on environmental issues and sustainability. With these new aircraft we will reduce emissions lastingly by 20 per cent compared with earlier models.”

Only profitable and sound companies are today in a position to invest in modern, fuel-saving, quiet and thereby environmentally friendly and economical long-haul aircraft for their customers. “Lufthansa is modernising, Lufthansa is growing and Lufthansa investing in further progress and a successful future,” Wolfgang Mayrhuber emphasised. A modern and well-structured fleet forms the backbone of a service and market-driven airline.

Wolfgang Mayrhuber continued: “With the orders for the highly modern B747-8, Lufthansa is setting standards. The Boeing B747-8 is more than just a derivative of the successful Boeing B747 series.” The airline will be the world’s first carrier to operate services with the new wide-body – the longest passenger jet in the world. In the Lufthansa configuration, the B747-8 will be capable of carrying around 400 passengers. “The B747-8 underlines our strategy of graded market-specific services and capacity expansion. It fits perfectly in our intercontinen-tal fleet structure and slots neatly capacity-wise between the A380 with around 550 seats and the A340-600 with around 300 seats.”

Integration of this plane in the fleet highlights Lufthansa’s role as an innovation driver.
“Lufthansa is an important partner for Boeing. The airline will play a critical role in helping us shape the future of the 747,” said Scott Carson, President and Chief Executive Officer, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. “We are thrilled Lufthansa has chosen the 747-8 Intercontinental to be an integral part of their young and environmentally friendly fleet.”

Lufthansa is equipping the 20 B747-8s with new General Electric GEnx-2B67 powerplants.
“The GEnx engines incorporate advanced, proven technologies from our highly successful GE90 engines as well as new innovation from GE’s ongoing research and development programs,” said Tom Brisken, General Manager of the GEnx program. “These advancements provide customers with improved fuel efficiency and reductions in emissions and noise and engine weight, and a lower cost of ownership.” The new B747-8 will burn an average of around 3.5 litres to fly one passenger 100 kilometres, setting new standards in fuel efficiency.

Deutsche Lufthansa AG
Corporate Communications

The article has no official Lufthansa comment on this, hearsay right now

You are of course correct.

Mind you, the Wall Street Journal is considered to be very respectable and accurate with its reporting.