Lysander compared to Storch

At the risk of a slight bit of thread drift…. just last week I found this great account of a checkout on a P-51 from 1971 again: http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepMustangBurch.html

I had read it before but somehow lost the link. There are more pilot reports from those days behind the link at the bottom of that page.

And thanks to all for the kind remarks!

Dave

It is!

I flew 2 airshows last summer in the P-51. It’s a very straightforward machine. Being a “second generation” WWII fighter, they’d sorted a lot of things out, and opted for simplicity from the point of view of the pilot. It’s one big gotcha is getting slow in the circuit.

I don’t have much time in it at all, but the evolution from the P-40 (in which I do have some time), to the P-51, is very striking during the checkout.

Just read it again Dave, still as good as the first time and a great magazine. I Recall the visit of the Belgian Lysander to RAF Linton on Ouse when I was on runway caravan duty, fine sight, surprisingly quiet. Later spoke to one of the support team who arrived in a C172. They mentioned that they had very few pilots who could safely fly the Lysander and your article explains the challenges.

Same here. After readings Dave’s wonderful article it was like I wanted to stay away from he Lizzy like the plague!
Sounds like ‘Stang would be easier to fly! 😛

Great stuff to read here!

Just read it again Dave, still as good as the first time and a great magazine. I Recall the visit of the Belgian Lysander to RAF Linton on Ouse when I was on runway caravan duty, fine sight, surprisingly quiet. Later spoke to one of the support team who arrived in a C172. They mentioned that they had very few pilots who could safely fly the Lysander and your article explains the challenges.

Great article Dave!
I was fortunate enough to get a great view of this Lysander, as I was approaching a fly in, in my Tiger Moth.
Dave heard me call on the radio and asked if he could form up on me. Uh…. …..yeah!!!
I held my speed and altitude and Dave appeared from below off my right wing. A great example of converting speed in to altitude.
We just did the one pass then broke off for our respective landings. So impressive to see that beauty off my wing.

Andy

A Storch was the aircraft that landed & took off in the middle of Berlin near the Brandenburg Gate during the fierce fighting that was taking place during the last days.

They also did that with Ju-52s……..it’s a fair bet a Lysander could do it too, the Heerstrasse by the bunker is quite wide, long and straight

That’s a great article Dave, thanks for posting the link! Flying that Lysander for a summer must have been a wonderful experience.

Hello Dave,

Interesting reading. Definitely one of my favourite plane.

Nice article Dave. It sounds quite a handful, but rewarding.

I persuaded the Belgian Lysander to formate on me in a Tiger Moth for some photos back in 1995. He hung in there OK, but always on the outside of the turns !

Maybe this thread is too old to dig up, but in case anyone is interested, I wrote an article about flying it (as one of many “barnstorming” days in 2016) that was published in EAA Warbirds, and later online here http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/605/Big-Silver-Kite.aspx

Have only just remembered to dig out my copy of Black Lysander written by John Nesbitt – Dufort DSO,C de G.

On his first Lizzie pick up (a 2.5 hr trip to Chateauroux),the welcoming committee had been delayed by local police and could not reach the briefed field,they heard JND cruising around searching for their signal torch light.
Correctly assuming that JND was about to abort,they leapt into the nearest field and set up the ‘L’ landing lights.
JND saw the signal and correctly assessed the field as extremely small with trees at the upwind end (not a good combination).
He set up for a ‘super short stopper’ (his description) and landed on the roughest field he had ever encountered : )
He taxied back to No1 torch and the changeover was completed in 4 mins.
He pulled the Ti t (emerg boost override ) and dragged the Lizzie off the ground with the aid of an extra large bump in the field.
There was then a blinding flash as he flew through some High Tension wires,closely followed by telephone wires and he climbed away with the wheels brushing the tree tops !
On the way home he managed to evade 2 night fighters which crossed approx 300 feet over him and got back safely to Tangmere – perhaps not surprisingly his radio had been frazzled by his encounter with the HT wires.

Lysanders were tough aircraft : )

I remember Eric Brown saying that he landed a Storch on a ‘carrier lift and all they had to do was lower it into the hanger!

Still, it would be fun to play with an O-49 for comparison.

KW flies his here… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU1Vy096LJU

In the 1930s, the thought seems to have been large observation types…a continuation of WWI-era thinking when observations types were large multipurpose machines…basically bombers without bombs.
In America that led to Douglas biplane of the 20s-30s, eventually leading to the North American O-47 a 900+ hp monoplane that was was the std. USAAC observation type of the period. It was broadly the American equivalent if the Lysander, though without the STOL capabilities.

Gradually, lighter liaison/artillery spotting types came to be recognized beginning with the large Stinson L-1 Vigilant, a 275 hp monoplane with a slots and flaps. Many were provided under lend lease.

The Americans eventually settled on the smaller/cheaper easier to fly and maintain Taylorcraft L-2, Aeronca L-3, and Piper L-4 series….and the UK followed suit with their Austers (basically a license built Taylorcraft). The higher powered Stinson L-5 was somewhere between the low powered”Cub” types and the L-1 and Lysander.

The Storch was very capable at STOL operations with wing and landing gear features not found on the smaller American machines. It should be noted that some of that capability came as a result of its relatively large (240 hp) engine with four times the power of the American L-4 and about 25% greater than the L-5.
Clearly, not in the same class as the Lysander or U.S. aircraft.

Sure. That’s all true. The Storch and the Cub-type aircraft are better at short-field. But essentially they are single-purpose aircraft. They go slow, don’t travel far, don’t carry much, and land short. That’s it.

The Lysander can do more. And back in the day it would get to central France and back in one night. You can’t do that mission in a Storch, even if you could carry enough petrol. Not enough load-carrying capability and too few hours of darkness.

I flew the Lysander this summer in several situations where the short-field capability was very handy. I only used a few hundred feet. It’s handy now, like it was handy then.

This photo I took at Mountainview, which is a WWII relief field for CFB Trenton. We were taking Air Cadets on Famil flights, but Trenton has no Avgas so we had to divert 15 nm to MV (where the Cadet glider operation is based) whenever we needed fuel.

I landed on the grass of the infield (just to the left of the picture), not on the runway, using about 500ft, because this allowed me to get to the pumps without having to taxi on pavement across a strong wind. (Lysander brakes now are not much better than they were then.) (And taxying a Lysander if it’s windy is usually of more concern than landing it.)

Anyway, during the summer, I used its short-field capability a number of times. But I also ferried from Ottawa to Edenvale without a stop, 250 sm into the prevailing west wind, with only internal fuel. And that is an fair indication of the aircraft’s utility.

Dave

As for wartime stol, both the Auster and Piper Cub could work in small fields provided there were not trees on approach climb out and other liasion types as well.

Maybe it was slower than the Lysander but speed is not everything.
A Storch was the aircraft that landed & took off in the middle of Berlin near the Brandenburg Gate during the fierce fighting that was taking place during the last days.
A Storch was the aircraft that was involved in Mussolini’s rescue in the Gran Sasso raid.
Both required a very short takeoff and landing performance.
After the war it was the Storch that rescued the crew and passengers of a USAAF C-47/C-53 that crashed on the Gauli Glacier in the Swiss Alps in winter. The US Military failed with all their resources.

Landing & taking off from an unprepared strip during a dark night, in occupied territory, to drop off or pick up “civilians” is definitely a risky job and quite a feat that demands the best of crew and machine!

Maybe from looks and size the Hs126 would be a better choice to compare.
Unfortunately none have survived to this day.

Congratulations to the owners and flyers of the surviving Lysanders & Storch’s.
Both beautiful aircraft to watch, esp the short field performance.

Thanks for all for the comments.

Most of the tasks the Lysander ended up completing involved flying fast enough to GET somewhere, like Air/Sea Rescue, and target-towing, and delivering mail and parts and people long-distances in North Africa, and delivering spies to and from France.

None of those jobs are practical in the 80 kt Storch.

The Henschel performed many of the same roles as the Lysander, but it was replaced in those roles by the Fw189 rather than the Storch. The Storch was a light liaison aircraft with the Auster or Vigilant as the closest Allied equivalents. Apart from overall configuration, the only thing the Lysander and Storch had in common was their STOL capability. Any roles they shared were on the margins of their main purpose.