Lysander Grip

That confused me to Graham. Turns out some Lysanders were fitted with a pair of 20mm Hispanos where the little stub wings should be. Made the Lysander with a tail turret look like an elegant piece of design. facts aplenty on the Spade Grip thread.

That confused me to Graham. Turns out some Lysanders were fitted with a pair of 20mm Hispanos where the little stub wings should be. Made the Lysander with a tail turret look like an elegant piece of design. facts aplenty on the Spade Grip thread.

Thanks for that.
20mm cannon on a Lysander that sounds scary must have shaken it to bits when fired 😮 Seems a strange idea to fit fire power like this to an aircraft that clearly had little chance of catching let alone shooting down an EA. Also there seems little point for ground attack when you have aircraft like the Typhoon available. Cannon must have been allot of added weight to an aircraft designed to sneak in and out of Enemy territory on a short take off and landing, makes no sence to me.

Hi Graham,

The Lysander was designed as an army co-op aircraft, so anything that could add to it’s punch would come in handy for strafing. This was well before other canon armed types, eg. Typhoon Ib, Hurri IIc etc, were available.

The ability to operate from short, rough strips was so that it could operate close to the front lines, and it just so happenned that it came in handy for ‘spy dropping’.

Thanks for that seems it was pretty advance technology if it pre dated Tiffy and Hurricane ground attack aircraft.

I dont suppose anyone has a picture of a Lysander with cannons?

Here you go Graham, not the best quality I’m afraid but illustrates the basics of the installation.

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/300lys3.jpg/

I’ve just been delving into various books, including James Kightly’s excellent Lysander book for a bit more detail on the cannon, and it seems that at least one squadron was supplied with cannon before the Battle of France, although they were never supplied with any 20mm ammo! A number of Lizzies were also fitted with 20mm during the Battle of Britain period as an anti-tank/anti-invasion barge measure, and this time they presumably had some ammo?!

The fitting of 20mm seems to have been rather sporadic, although the installation is mentioned in the type’s pilots notes. It seems many Lysanders had provision for the fitting of cannon, even if they weren’t actually fitted.

Here you go Graham, not the best quality I’m afraid but illustrates the basics of the installation.

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/300lys3.jpg/

WOW thanks for that, they just strapped them on the thing must have shaken like crazy when they fired. Would have thought it caused stability problems must have made the nose dip.

There were all sorts of lash ups made to counter Operation Sealion. How about Tiger Moths with bomb racks. Anything to frighten the horses which the Germans proposed to carry across the channel on their river barges. It is a great pity they never attempted this mad scheme.

Graham, you’ve sent me a pm but I cannot reply until you clear out your inbox. Laterz.

Graham, you’ve sent me a pm but I cannot reply until you clear out your inbox. Laterz.

done

There were all sorts of lash ups made to counter Operation Sealion. How about Tiger Moths with bomb racks. Anything to frighten the horses which the Germans proposed to carry across the channel on their river barges. It is a great pity they never attempted this mad scheme.

I actually have a 1940 piece of a Bomb rack for a Tiger Moth its a beautiful brass gadget.

Here’s another photo. It looks to be K6127 which as listed as one of two prototypes delivered between July 37 and April 38. It must have almost stopped it when they were fired. Was there an eight gun Master, as well as snooker balls in socks and welded pikes to hold back the Hun.

Was it the RAF’s first cannon armed plane?

Here’s another photo. It looks to be K6127 which as listed as one of two prototypes delivered between July 37 and April 38. It must have almost stopped it when they were fired. Was there an eight gun Master, as well as snooker balls in socks and welded pikes to hold back the Hun.

Stopped and nosed dived, Would think its highly unlikely it would have got a shot off at the invasion barges with swarms of BF 109s around. Its stange the humble Lysander had Cannons fitted long before the Hurricane and Spitfire, its got to be one of the best bodges the RAF came up with.

Was it the RAF’s first cannon armed plane?

Cannot think of another, after all what other RAF aircraft was cable of mounting cannon at that time?

Hi
Not sure, would have to check the book, but think the 500 Sqn anson’s had the 20mm first.
cheers
Jerry

I’ve just been delving into various books, including James Kightly’s excellent Lysander book for a bit more detail on the cannon,

Thanks!

WOW thanks for that, they just strapped them on the thing must have shaken like crazy when they fired. Would have thought it caused stability problems must have made the nose dip.

Why would it? Newton’s third law applies; “To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” Equal being the critical part. The Lysander was a reasonably large single-engine aircraft, with significant mass, similar to that of most cannon-armed single seat fighters of the time. For some reason, as soon as cannon are mentioned in non-fighter types, people seem to assume that on firing it would drop it out of the sky, despite the fact that a projectile would have to be fired a lot faster or be a lot heavier than most guns were capable of at the time. Vibration from firing was a different issue, and did cause problems on types like the Tetse Mozzie and the cannon armed B-25 at servicing, but the myths of ‘stopping in mid air’ are just hyperbole.

There were all sorts of lash ups made to counter Operation Sealion. How about Tiger Moths with bomb racks. Anything to frighten the horses which the Germans proposed to carry across the channel on their river barges. It is a great pity they never attempted this mad scheme.

Just to be clear – it was a bit more than a ‘lash up’ and was devised before the risk of an invasion occurred.

Was it the RAF’s first cannon armed plane?

They probably had a SPAD or two in service in April 1918.

Certainly there were the COW armed fighters and flying boat in the 1930s.

By 1940 cannon were a reasonably widely used option in fighters and a few bombers if you consider the scene worldwide. Machine-gun only armament was still widespread, but certainly in the process of being supplanted.

Regards,

Thanks!

Why would it? Newton’s third law applies; “To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” Equal being the critical part. The Lysander was a reasonably large single-engine aircraft, with significant mass, similar to that of most cannon-armed single seat fighters of the time. For some reason, as soon as cannon are mentioned in non-fighter types, people seem to assume that on firing it would drop it out of the sky, despite the fact that a projectile would have to be fired a lot faster or be a lot heavier than most guns were capable of at the time. Vibration from firing was a different issue, and did cause problems on types like the Tetse Mozzie and the cannon armed B-25 at servicing, but the myths of ‘stopping in mid air’ are just hyperbole.

Just to be clear – it was a bit more than a ‘lash up’ and was devised before the risk of an invasion occurred.

They probably had a SPAD or two in service in April 1918.

Certainly there were the COW armed fighters and flying boat in the 1930s.

By 1940 cannon were a reasonably widely used option in fighters and a few bombers if you consider the scene worldwide. Machine-gun only armament was still widespread, but certainly in the process of being supplanted.

Regards,

I would have to do some serious maths to work out the exact forces involved but the weight of the shot combined with the velocity it leaves the barrel would create quite a force pushing backwards on the legs.
When you consider the positioning of the guns on the legs it would have an increased effect on stability a bit like a spanner turning a nut.
I know from using flight sims that firing cannons do slow Spitfires down which is a heavier and more powerful aircraft than a Lysander so there is a considerable force invoked.
It seems to me that some effect would be felt on the stick of a Lysander how much that effect would be would like i say take some working out, however at the very least it would affect sighting of the guns.
It certainly caused some problems as they were not adopted operationally.

I would have to do some serious maths to work out the exact forces involved but the weight of the shot combined with the velocity it leaves the barrel would create quite a force pushing backwards on the legs.
When you consider the positioning of the guns on the legs it would have an increased effect on stability a bit like a spanner turning a nut.
I know from using flight sims that firing cannons do slow Spitfires down which is a heavier and more powerful aircraft than a Lysander so there is a considerable force invoked.
It seems to me that some effect would be felt on the stick of a Lysander how much that effect would be would like i say take some working out, however at the very least it would affect sighting of the guns.
It certainly caused some problems as they were not adopted operationally.

They are not particularly big rounds and the effect is very much short term, it would be no worse at effect on the aircraft handling qualities than mild chop……you may get one or two degrees pitch change on a prolonged burst but I seriously doubt it would be anymore…..now a Mollins gun would be a different story!!

Regarding sims, I would not get too wound up on their accuracy if I was you….the whole thing with a gaming sim is to provide cueing that you are doing something. These sims are not always based on the best control and flight aerodynamics laws.

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