Lysander In French Museum (Revived With New Request For Info)

Possibly the main reason the ladder was on the port side is because all of the starboard side panels are detachable for maintenance and of course a fixed ladder would interfere with this vital function.

I’ve just looked at a photo of the Lysander which shows the exhaust was on the starboard side – possibly another reason for a port side ladder.

The Lysander has long been a personal favourite type for me. I’d love to get my hands on one!

The RAFM Lysander, R9125, is a very historic machine; quite apart from the SOE connection. It was operated as a coastal patrol aircraft in 1940 and then, prior to SOE, operated as a target tug with CGS. Rarely can one machine have operated in so many varied guises – although it appears R9125 may never have actually undertaken any ‘live’ SOE missions as it didn’t arrive at Tempsford until well after the last such missions were flown.

Some close ups of the centre section fuel tanks here:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1997/08/stuff_eng_detail_lysander.htm

And a walk around on a mocked up SOE Lysander:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/lysander/lysander_walk.shtml

Yes, that does seem to “fit”.

What a pity there are no details, dates or caption with the original photo.

Here’s a german wartime photo of an SOE Lysander. Its not very good quality. But show’s the ladder on the left side. I dont know anything about the aircraft in the picture.

Dave

I think this could be the Lysander of F/O ‘Dinger’ Bell.
A Lysander pilot (Murray Anderson) mentions Dinger’s crash in his book and describes it thus:
…..Four thouseand feet, two thouseand feet, one thousand feet. He hit the ground with a terrific wallop, which jarred his backside. That was all!

After a few seconds he realised he was unhurt. He opened thecockpit window and stepped out onto the ground. The three Joes were already out with their suitcases. No one was hurt, the aircraft was squashed flat like a swatted insect, the undercarriage had collapsed, the wings and tailplane had fallen off, and the engine buried in the soft earth. In spite of the huge belly tank being split open, and the place reeking of petrol, there was no fire.

To my mind the picture does seem to fit the description.

There are multiple references to F/O Bathgate in Verity’s ‘We Landed by Moonlight‘ which should be the first stop anyway for anyone interested in the 161 Sqn story. There are copies easily available of this Crecy book, my one’s (paperback) is ISBN is 0947554750.

HTH!

I am looking for information about my great uncle F/O James RG Bathgate (NZ403932) who flew with the RAF 161 Squadron during Sept- Dec 1943. He died in a crash in France on 11 Dec 1943. I saw the photo on this forum and wondered if anyone else had information about James, where he flew and with whom.

Thanks

Just returned from holiday in France where I came across a memorial to two Lysander pilots FO JRG Bathgate and JM McBride They landed Claude Bonnier and a colleague at field ALBATROS near Agneac Charente on 15th November 1943.

Have photo of memorial if you care to e-mail me.
[email]d.peter@btopenworld.com[/email]

I am looking for information about my great uncle F/O James RG Bathgate (NZ403932) who flew with the RAF 161 Squadron during Sept- Dec 1943. He died in a crash in France on 11 Dec 1943. I saw the photo on this forum and wondered if anyone else had information about James, where he flew and with whom.

Thanks

Possibly the main reason the ladder was on the port side is because all of the starboard side panels are detachable for maintenance and of course a fixed ladder would interfere with this vital function.

Well silly me – that makes sense! Practical experience counts… 😉

Possibly the main reason the ladder was on the port side is because all of the starboard side panels are detachable for maintenance and of course a fixed ladder would interfere with this vital function.

‘superflous n’

Isn’t that a kind of toothpaste?

Thanks again, all.

Thanks for looking this up David, as least we have a reference now and for Mushroom Lysander Volume 2, Page 122 be updated to say

“the genuine Lysander Mk.III (SD) donated to France after W.W.II seems to have simply disappeared.”

can be replaced by

“the genuine Lysander Mk.III (SD) donated to France after W.W.II was unfortuately scrapped prior to 1973.”

JDK based on his editing experience will of course do much better than this..

Note to self.. Always use JDK from now on to avoid repeating ‘superflous n’ in name mistake

Volume 4 with the Lancaster on the front Paul

Thanks David, Paul and Steve. Next time I’ll re-read ALL my books first. :rolleyes:

Volume 4 with the Lancaster on the front Paul

One more question, was there a particular reason that the fixed ladder was on the port side? Was it easier for the pilot to ‘control’ boarding from the cockpit (as it would be risky for him to get out)?

No particular reason I’m aware of, or have read about. The real question is why the footsteps to the rear cockpit were on the (unusual) right? For a guess, I’d speculate something to do with not interfering with the oblique camera window on the port side.

Tangmere – your inbox is full – PM inbound!

ALL properly-converted Special Duties (SD) Lysanders had the ladder fixed to the port side. They had a handle on the canopy to open it at the top of the ladder.

The Shuttleworth Lysander is a Canadian built example, very well mocked up as an SD example. However, it’s a mock up, rather than a fully configured SD example…..and AFAIK the rear cockpit has not been reconfigured as a SD example – along with, I presume, the single canopy handle.

Thanks for the answer, I must take note of the SD Lysander on my next (long overdue) visit to Hendon.

One more question, was there a particular reason that the fixed ladder was on the port side? Was it easier for the pilot to ‘control’ boarding from the cockpit (as it would be risky for him to get out)?

Paul – I’d assumed Steve ment the column in IIRC Air International, not the V&V books.

James, your observations – as ever – are most interesting. I will be happy to send you a high-res scan of the cartoon. I have others, too.

Thanks! A second edition of the Lysander probably will happen, when I’m over the trauma of the first and not busy on other projects… Good material always welcome!

One has to wonder I suppose, on considering further, if this was a landing/take off accident at a reception site? Certainly the terrain looks to be an ideal location for a landing field.

That was my first guess, but may be wrong – high speed wipe out on take-off or landing?

Cheers,

Well remembered Steve!

It has to be in either Vol 2, 3 or 4 of Hunts Veteran and vintage aircraft of the world books as that is where I must have read about it being scrapped and I have not got volume 1!

Paul

James, your observations – as ever – are most interesting. I will be happy to send you a high-res scan of the cartoon. I have others, too.

You are quite right about the crashed Lysander. There are other possibilities, but not sure what other losses there were with 161 from memory? Robin Hooper’s machine was burnt on site, and another was pushed onto a railway crossing to allow a passing French express to do the rest! I need to check but dont think there are any others. Are there? I stand to be corrected as I am only going from memory here. There was the episode on 17 December 1943 when 161 lost Hankey and McBride but they were in the UK. Of course, it could be a 138 machine as you say. One has to wonder I suppose, on considering further, if this was a landing/take off accident at a reception site? Certainly the terrain looks to be an ideal location for a landing field.

Question: Why is the fixed ladder on the Lysander on the wrong side for SOE pick-ups?

Bit of a stumper this question. Actually, a bit more elaboration, and I now understand where the confusion comes from.

ALL properly-converted Special Duties (SD) Lysanders had the ladder fixed to the port side. They had a handle on the canopy to open it at the top of the ladder. (To refer to them as SOE /SIS or ‘spy droppers’ is fine, but not technically correct, as they undertook numerous roles. 138 and 161 Squadrons in the UK were mainly used by SOE and the SIS as well as some other duties.)

The original Lysander rear cockpit was entered from the starboard side normally, hence the footsteps and handle on that side. (The pilot normally enters from the port – carefully – it’s quite a climb).

There is only one genuine SD Lysander known extant – that’s the RAF Museum aircraft.

The Shuttleworth Lysander is a Canadian built example, very well mocked up as an SD example. However, it’s a mock up, rather than a fully configured SD example – so the long-range tank is a dummy, obviously not used, and there are other differences to original – it doesn’t have the long range tank behind the pilot’s head in the canopy area for instance, and AFAIK the rear cockpit has not been reconfigured as a SD example – along with, I presume, the single canopy handle.

Re “Lise”, the Lysander presented to France immediately postwar, I well remember Leslie Hunt’s “stop-press” appendix to one of the old Veteran & Vintage Aircraft surveys, to the effect that his research had recently uncovered that the missing “Lise” had indeed been scrapped in France. (You could “hear” the dismay in Mr Hunt’s tone just reading it! In the Foreword, probably to the same edition, he also noted with similar dismay the then-recent destruction of TSR2 XR219 at Foulness Island).

Hi Steve, that’s interesting. Can you recall when?

On the subject of getting in and out of Lysanders, this is a cartoon drawn by one of the “Joes” taken in/out of Tangmere via Lysander 1943/44….

Great stuff, I’d love a copy of that. It well illustrates the issues in these ops. There were serious problems in the early days, until reception crews were properly trained; people trying to walk into turning props, putting their foot through the fabric etc. Worse still was poor evaluation of landing-grounds, resulting in some hairy attempts…

Here’s a german wartime photo of an SOE Lysander. Its not very good quality. But show’s the ladder on the left side. I dont know anything about the aircraft in the picture.

Again, most interesting. I’ve not seen this photo or a photo of this aircraft before. Again, I’d be most interested in a copy, if poss.

It’s definitely an SD example – late war roundel / fin flash, long range tank on the right of the pic, and ladder visible.

If it is indeed a 161 (Special Duties) Sqn aircraft then I suspect it may be V9673, the aircraft of Fg Off J R G Bathgate (NZ) shot down near Ville aux Bois les Pontavert on 11 December 1943.

What makes you so certain, Tangmere? It’s an SD example all right, but it could be a 138 Sqn example, and several aircraft were lost from both units – I’ve not gone through the list, but there’d be a few possible candidates, I’d assume. I’d also speculate it looks like a low-level or low speed crash, rather than a ‘shot-down’ example, although the whole aircraft’s shed parts as it’s swung around.

Best source on the SD Lysanders is, of course, Hugh Verity’s book, which is very readable and highly recommended – We landed by Moonlight.

Interesting stuff, nice to see ‘new’ material appear. Thanks everyone.

To explain, the Shuttleworth Lysander has the fixed ladder on one side and the canopy opening lever on the other; there isn’t a lever on both sides and you can’t reach the lever from the ground.

It’s a Canadian Lysander. The Canadians drive on the other side… 😉