Air traffic controllers at Manchester Airport have changed instructions to pilots after confusion led to taxiing planes colliding.
Aircraft involved in the two collisions in 2007 and 2008 were damaged, but none of the 468 passengers was hurt.
The pilot of the Boeing 737, which struck the tail of a passing plane, said the words “give way” confused him.
A report, by the Air Accident Investigations Branch, prompted the airport to withdraw the term.
Instead, the pilot told investigators, air traffic controllers should use the phrase “hold position”.
The confusion between the pilot and controllers led to the right winglet of the Tenerife-bound Boeing 737 hitting the tail of a 107-passenger Lufthansa Airbus A320 which had been due to fly to Frankfurt.
Source: BBC News
By: Gonzo - 17th February 2010 at 08:58
1L,
If you pull up to a T junction to turn left, where you need to ‘give way to’ traffic, and there’s a car doing 30mph 500m to your right, do you stay where you are and wait, or do you judge that you can pull out and accelerate to normal speed without causing any hazard to the approaching car because it’s so far away?
Or crossing oncoming traffic to turn right?….Do you wait until you cannot see any oncoming cars at all, even though you have good visibility ahead? Yes, you must ‘give way to’ oncoming traffic, but that means you make a judgement as to when it’s safe to cross and go, not just wait for every car to pass you no matter how far away it is.
By: abutcher1985 - 17th February 2010 at 08:01
No disprespect mate, but I hope you don’t drive anywhere that I do. 😉
Both on the road and at the airport give way is an abbreviated form of ‘give right of way to’ in other words, let any other one go first.
1L.
Not really…
On the roads, traffic lights tell you to STOP for other traffic or pedestrians where the view isn’t sufficient or there is too much traffic for the driver to make a sound judgement.
Give way lines indicate that, if you proceed and there is an accident, it will be your fault. But it is up to the driver’s judgement whether or not it is safe to proceed.
On the taxiways, an aircraft is told to stop or hold position, and may not move off until it is given the “green light” to proceed. If it is told to give way then it may choose to slow right down and pass behind the second aircraft… but if the pilot’s view is limited then he might think the aircraft has passed before it actually has
By: Arabella-Cox - 16th February 2010 at 20:45
Doesn’t ICAO publish a manual of standard terminology?
They do. You can find it in the Jeppesen Manuals as well.
By: OneLeft - 16th February 2010 at 14:29
The concern is that ‘give way to’ could be interpreted to mean: “If you think you have enough room to pull out in front of the other aircraft, go ahead” as it does on the road.
No disprespect mate, but I hope you don’t drive anywhere that I do. 😉
Both on the road and at the airport give way is an abbreviated form of ‘give right of way to’ in other words, let any other one go first.
1L.
By: cockerhoop - 16th February 2010 at 13:01
Dare is say a don’t think a Lufhansa pilot would “give way” in any language
bet they hate joining the “queue ” for the runway too:)
By: zoot horn rollo - 16th February 2010 at 11:28
Doesn’t ICAO publish a manual of standard terminology?
By: Buran - 16th February 2010 at 10:52
The passenger figure on BBC might be referring to the second incident involving a PIA 777.
By: Arabella-Cox - 15th February 2010 at 21:02
Air traffic controllers at Manchester Airport have changed instructions to pilots after confusion led to taxiing planes colliding.
Aircraft involved in the two collisions in 2007 and 2008 were damaged, but none of the 468 passengers was hurt.
The pilot of the Boeing 737, which struck the tail of a passing plane, said the words “give way” confused him.
A report, by the Air Accident Investigations Branch, prompted the airport to withdraw the term.
Instead, the pilot told investigators, air traffic controllers should use the phrase “hold position”.
The confusion between the pilot and controllers led to the right winglet of the Tenerife-bound Boeing 737 hitting the tail of a 107-passenger Lufthansa Airbus A320 which had been due to fly to Frankfurt.
Source: BBC News
Will be interesting to see the outcome.
By: Gonzo - 15th February 2010 at 19:25
This issue has been debated at, I would imagine, every busy airport control tower in the country.
The concern is that ‘give way to’ could be interpreted to mean: “If you think you have enough room to pull out in front of the other aircraft, go ahead” as it does on the road.
By: Grey Area - 15th February 2010 at 19:19
Yes, that sounds about right now that you mention it.
Come to think of it, wasn’t the XL aircraft that whacked the bmi Baby a B767-200 rather than a B737?
By: OneLeft - 15th February 2010 at 19:16
XL Airways, wasn’t it?
That’s what I had thought, so I was puzzled as to why the expression ‘give way’ would be an issue for a UK based pilot. Now that I think about it though, the Lufthansa incident involved a Futura aircraft so it makes more sense. The XL aircraft was involved with the bmi Baby collision.
1L.
By: Grey Area - 15th February 2010 at 17:39
XL Airways, wasn’t it?
By: OneLeft - 15th February 2010 at 16:29
Remind me whose 737 was involved.
1L.
By: rdc1000 - 15th February 2010 at 10:59
To be fair, with 361 passengers on board, the B737 probably tried to stop, but being so heavy rolled for longer than anticipated. The damage would ahve been worse I guess had Lufthansa had one of their full length A320’s in service that day, luckily they had removed a couple of air frame sections on that particular aircraft so the number of passenger involved was less.
Gotta love the BBC!!! 😮
I just re-read the article and noticed it was in relation to two incidents….it’s too early on a Monday morning for me. My bad! I could get away with a job at the BBC with that sort of poor attention to detail!
By: rdc1000 - 15th February 2010 at 10:43
Aircraft involved in the two collisions in 2007 and 2008 were damaged, but none of the 468 passengers was hurt.
The pilot of the Boeing 737….
The confusion between the pilot and controllers led to the right winglet of the Tenerife-bound Boeing 737 hitting the tail of a 107-passenger Lufthansa Airbus A320 which had been due to fly to Frankfurt.
Source: BBC News
To be fair, with 361 passengers on board, the B737 probably tried to stop, but being so heavy rolled for longer than anticipated. The damage would ahve been worse I guess had Lufthansa had one of their full length A320’s in service that day, luckily they had removed a couple of air frame sections on that particular aircraft so the number of passenger involved was less.
Gotta love the BBC!!! 😮
By: PMN - 14th February 2010 at 16:45
Have they changed their phraseology to include “WHHOOOOOOOAAAA!”?
By: runway 32 - 14th February 2010 at 16:32
I thought controllers in the UK were employed by the CAA, not by individual airports? :confused:
Are you thinking of NATS? NATS don’t control ATC at all UK airports.
By: abutcher1985 - 14th February 2010 at 09:24
Presumably both of these incidents took place at the same intersection where the views are not sufficient for pilots to judge whether or not it is safe to carry one? Like a blind spot or something?
This would explain why the change in procedure only effects Manchester (perhaps it only effects a single intersection at Manchester?)
By: Grey Area - 14th February 2010 at 09:02
I thought controllers in the UK were employed by the CAA, not by individual airports? :confused:
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February 14, 2010 at 3:33 am