Marines now planning split buy?

Seems like F-35B will/(would?) need a lot less special flying training than a Harrier.
I’m not sure what’s more demanding – qualifying for CATOBAR or for Harrier.
But I guess F-35B STOVL qualification will be quite a bit easier than CATOBAR qualification.

cancelling the “B” wouldnt “kill” Marine air. They would just operate “C”s and maybe the SH.

Sorry, I meant “kill Marine air” as in “in the only sense by which it is discernible from USAF/USN capabilities.” :rolleyes:

No, I’m trying to explain that there is no STOVL-only training program and one would have to be established.

A bit difficult to simulate STOVL in a T-45.

Where did that last bit come from? Weird digression.

You seem to be missing the point.

What Jonesy says, basically, but with a USMC two type fleet you put the F-35C pilots through the USN carrier course. The only STOVL training programme you need already exists: the STOVL conversion course.

You could, alternatively, put the USMC F-35B pilots through the USN fighter course but omitting the carrier qualification part of it, then STOVL conversion. How easy that is depends on how the course is structured.

Either way, there’s no need for a separate track.

No, I’m trying to explain that there is no STOVL-only training program and one would have to be established. Right now you send them to the Carrier track or the Helicopter track. There is no RAF-style land based track to send them to. Then after you’ve spent money on activating a Marine STOVL training wing that is basically the intermediate and advanced jet programs without carrier field landing and shipboard training,

Why does there need to be a STOVL only training program?. Currently USMC fastjet pilots go through USN pilot training and then convert to STOVL – if I understand it right?. So they learn in a conventional type before converting. If they are never likely to need to undertake CATOBAR ops why not train them in the USAF F-35A stream and then do the STOVL conversion when they reach their OCU?.

Hell of a lot cheaper than needlessly chewing through Goshawk and -35C cycle lives and, with an all F-35B force, the USMC pilots shouldn’t need to gain familiarity with the Fleet carriers because they dont belong there and wont be operating off of them anyway. STOVL deck quals, even for the tricky Harrier, have proven to be achievable by land-based pilots with no maritime flight operations experience whatsoever. Anecdotally F-35B is a far more benign beast in the hover so the need for protracted qualification periods at sea just isnt there.

if one of the STOVL pilots ever switches track to the Charlie or decides to go into naval test pilot training, you have to send them back to T-45s to be trained on carrier operations before reporting to the fleet replacement squadron or USNTPS.

If an F-35B pilot wants to fly a CATOBAR type he does exactly the same as a USAF pilot does at the moment. He goes through the Carrier Qualification course from scratch. Better to train a few pilots for CATOBAR when they do need it than all pilots for CATOBAR when they dont!.

You are trying to compare the overheads of a STOVL training program with that needed for CATOBAR deck qualification and continuation training?.

No, I’m trying to explain that there is no STOVL-only training program and one would have to be established. Right now you send them to the Carrier track or the Helicopter track. There is no RAF-style land based track to send them to. Then after you’ve spent money on activating a Marine STOVL training wing that is basically the intermediate and advanced jet programs without carrier field landing and shipboard training, if one of the STOVL pilots ever switches track to the Charlie or decides to go into naval test pilot training, you have to send them back to T-45s to be trained on carrier operations before reporting to the fleet replacement squadron or USNTPS.

Why? Sounds like a waste of money to me. Why train them at great expense in a skill which needs constant practice to maintain, & which they don’t use?

Not a completely different syllabus, BTW. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be pretty near identical up to type qualification for F-18 & Harrier, which you’d follow by separate carrier qualifications. STOVL pilots just omit the F-18/F-35C & cat & trap sections & instead go on to separate type & STOVL deck landing & T/O training – which they have to do anyway.

A bit difficult to simulate STOVL in a T-45.

Not when you consider you’d need a completely different training syllabus for the STOVL pilots.

You are trying to compare the overheads of a STOVL training program with that needed for CATOBAR deck qualification and continuation training?.

The STOVL crowd seem to forget about the 2/3rds of Marine strikefighter pilots flying hornets and that even the ones flying harriers had to do conventional carrier training to get their wings of gold.

Why? Sounds like a waste of money to me. Why train them at great expense in a skill which needs constant practice to maintain, & which they don’t use?

Not a completely different syllabus, BTW. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be pretty near identical up to type qualification for F-18 & Harrier, which you’d follow by separate carrier qualifications. STOVL pilots just omit the F-18/F-35C & cat & trap sections & instead go on to separate type & STOVL deck landing & T/O training – which they have to do anyway.

Not when you consider you’d need a completely different training syllabus for the STOVL pilots.

The STOVL crowd seem to forget about the 2/3rds of Marine strikefighter pilots flying hornets and that even the ones flying harriers had to do conventional carrier training to get their wings of gold. Its an inconvenience, not a show stopper. It gets canceled, they probably have to develop new lightweight deployable field cats and arresting gear systems.

Sounds like a good deal of training overhead saved by STOVL if suddenly you dont need to CATOBAR deck qualify 60% of your pilots doesnt it?!.

The STOVL crowd seem to forget about the 2/3rds of Marine strikefighter pilots flying hornets and that even the ones flying harriers had to do conventional carrier training to get their wings of gold. Its an inconvenience, not a show stopper. It gets canceled, they probably have to develop new lightweight deployable field cats and arresting gear systems.

Yip, it seems on the way out.

The USMC has 7+1 Harrier (T)VMAs, and 13+3 Hornet (T)VMFA/AW. Could that move be the first step to replace Hornets with F-35C, and only the ~130 Harriers with F-35B? That would be more than 60% down from the original 340.

Why would they opt for a course of action that would give them the very worst possible outcome?. The cost of the -35B’s they WANT would skyrocket and they would end up not only reinforcing the big deck carrier dependence they dont want, but, tying themselves into the CAW for the next two generations.

IF the F-35B makes it into squadron service at all why would the existing plans not be pursued?. F-35B is still the USMC platform of choice.

My bad I should’ve been clearer: I meant ‘go through’ as in ‘be brought to service’. I just can’t imagine them pulling the plug at this point, not when there are no alternative prospects beyond abandoning Marine fixed air and the extra decks that come with that. I think F-35B was a mistake, but it’s a little too late for that now.

cancelling the “B” wouldnt “kill” Marine air. They would just operate “C”s and maybe the SH.

My bad I should’ve been clearer: I meant ‘go through’ as in ‘be brought to service’. I just can’t imagine them pulling the plug at this point, not when there are no alternative prospects beyond abandoning Marine fixed air and the extra decks that come with that. I think F-35B was a mistake, but it’s a little too late for that now.

Yip, it seems on the way out.

The USMC has 7+1 Harrier (T)VMAs, and 13+3 Hornet (T)VMFA/AW. Could that move be the first step to replace Hornets with F-35C, and only the ~130 Harriers with F-35B? That would be more than 60% down from the original 340.
And with half of the future carrier wing F-35C inventory coming from MCAir, my song is increasingly becoming reality: Ceterum autem censeo, that the Marines should get out of fast jet aviation.

I think the B is almost certain to go through at this point. This ‘probation’ stuff is just for show.

keep an eye on Sen Warner (D. VA). He is working on bi-partisan budget proposal based on the President’s earlier debt commision. I wouldnt lay odds on anything until his new “gang of 13” (?) come forward.

With the problems its had and the budget difficulties, 50/50 at best. Any more hiccups and that can drop dramatically.

The SHs will be replaced by a new, pushing the tech-envelope, ‘6th Gen’ [lol] aircraft programme? I doubt that they’ll last until the necessary 2050, for that to happen….

By the way, I’ve been reading the F-35 threads with interest, and though I have no intention of raking over those tired ol’ coals again, I do need a better idea of the likelihood of F-35B going ahead for a project I’m working on.

It’s difficult for most of us to know, based upon public information, but there’s one forum member who quite often talks about the odds being in F-35B’s favour, but without saying what the odds are, or how derived… they say that you can bet on anything, and that bookmakers are pretty sharp – does anyone know the odds that a well-informed US bookie would give to F-35B’s survival as a programme?

I’m not being snide – I’d genuinely be really interested, need to have a better idea (divorced from corporate PR) and am in no position to ask one.

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/03/navy_dfn_jsf_031411w/

The first Navy F-35C carrier squadron is set to stand up in December 2015, with the first Marine F-35C squadron following a year later.

By the mid-2020s, according to Navy planners, each carrier air wing will have two Super Hornet squadrons and two Lightning II squadrons. Every fourth F-35C squadron will be a Marine squadron.

The Navy continues to plan for a fleet of 10 carrier air wings, with 44 strike fighters per wing, organized into 10- and 12-plane squadrons. The Navy will field 35 strike fighter squadrons composed of Super Hornets and F-35Cs, and the Marines will supply five F-35C squadrons.

The Navy Department still intends to buy 680 F-35 joint strike fighters. Of those, 260 will be Navy F-35Cs, another 80 F-35Cs will be Marine aircraft, and the STOVL version for the Corps will make up 340 planes, or half the total Navy-Marine JSF fleet. The Lightnings will serve alongside a total fleet of 556 F/A-18 Es and Fs.

There is no intention to field an all-JSF force with any carrier air wing, a senior Navy official said. A new, sixth-generation aircraft will be developed as a follow-on to the F-35, and those aircraft will replace the Super Hornets.

And here I was thinking that USMC’s contribution to fiscal sustainability might include abandoning the maintenance of aviation capacities overlapping those of USAF/USN. :rolleyes: