Mark I mustangs

zoyland mustang

Heres a good side plate diagram of Mustang AG431, she only served with 16sqn, and was at westonzoyland I believe,
she was one of 320 delivered by North American between Nov 41 and May 42 to contract A-250,

she was last used as a ground instructional airframe, being given the Number
4225M on the 18th of october 1943.

only from a Model box , but a nice ilistration all the same ,

Allison Mustang vs Merlin Mustang Plans

Unfortunately a number of the responses in trying to be helpful have missed the point of the original request, which is for details for the Allison engined Mustang Mk.1 which is quite a different aircraft in a number of key shapes and dimensions to the Merlin engined P-51B/C/D/K variants. To use an analogy, it would be like trying to use plans for a Griffon engined Spitfire XIVE for a Merlin engined Spitfire Mk.1 build.

If Bentley has done plans for the Allison variants, they would be a good starting point, but I have yet to find an accurate set of large scale plans for the early Allison engined Mustangs from any R/C or similar large scale model building supplier. Due to the popularity and prominence placed on them due to their use by the USAAF in particular the P-51D is well covered with the B/C models also not too shabbily covered.

But the originals, the Allison engined Mustangs which is where the story started, have been seriously let down to date with accurate plans. Some so called ‘accurate plans’ of Allison Mustangs have been no more than Merlin engined B/C model plans with just the Allison engine front end stuck on. In doing so it then ignores the many difference in the both the aircraft fuselage and wing shapes and dimensions that existed between the two variants. It overlooks issues such as fuselage depth, differences in the radiator intake shapes, wing plan forms, positioning and shape of various hatches and access panels, the list goes on.

As an aside,

Im guessing from reading your posts around the diff forums that you have limited experience in R/C model making.

I would highly recommend not only doing research on the fullsize aircraft (forget going to measure up a fullsize one, people have done that for you) but maybe look at how R/C model aircraft are built.

Get one of these books. Inside it shows how to design and construct R/C Scale models of various types. Ive got one in my house and trust me its worth its weight in gold. It will show you how to design models from using a scale drawing but also show you diff ways of construction, which will enable you to recreate those complex shapes.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Book-Radio-Control-Scale-Aircraft-by-Gordon-Whitehead_W0QQitemZ160242931271QQihZ006QQcategoryZ274QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

Well wherer to start, i have CAD skills, (a formal qualification but that doesnt mean much) i have a computer with CAD software and im about to purchase a machine (tho i have friends with them)
I have friends within the LMA and friends into aero and scale modelling.

Its a joint project with a few friends but it wont be very large(ish). It wont be a flyer so it doesnt have to be aerodynamic in any way.

I have an image in my head what i want iit to be, and ive got a bit of support.
I think the best thing would be to get some form of book used by engineers on thee a/c that give all the dimensions as there are no survivors.

Weston Zoyland had lots of Mustangs 1’s and i cant think of anyway to represent the type (plus its something ive wanted to do)

any more q’s?

Thanks for the help and comments

668

You really are going the difficult way around this. Mustangs have been done to death in the R/C modelling world so why are you making so much work for yourself by starting from scratch?

My advice is get the Arthur Bently drawings. I have a number of his at home and they are blooming good drawings.

Now go with said scale drawings and also get yourself a set of R/C plans from a reputable designer. My advice would be this one here.

http://www.myhobbystore.com/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/1285/groupID/3/categoryID/60/referrer/MFpod

David Vaughan won the R/C world champs many years ago with this model so its good accuracy wise. Certainly good enough for what you will require. All the hard work re working out former shapes and construction is done for you.

Now using this plan in conjunction with the Bently drawings modify the R/C plan to a Mk1 Mustang. Ive designed a number of R/C planes (albeit by old fashioned pencil and paper) and its not a quick process. You keep saying you have no time or little time so make it easier for yourself by utlilising some one elses hard work and cutting down the design/drawing time.

If the David Vaughan model isnt big enough take it to a copy shop and they will blow it up to the right size you require.

Go back to the Source

If you are after really accurate information on construction, dimensions, shapes, then the P-51, Mustang Mk.1, Mustang Mk.1A Erection and Maintenance Manual, a copy of which I understand is held somewhere in the AIR files of the Archives at Kew and also by the RAF Museum at Hendon, would be a very good place to start. I don’t have my copy immediately to hand at present to quote the relevant reference numbers. It contains all the basics for erecting and maintaining the full sized original, including key measurements, technical drawings and diagrams, etc.

Also I believe Charles Neely in the USA has done some considerable work on doing accurate P-51 drawings based on original factory drawings and extant airframes.

HTH.

Well wherer to start, i have CAD skills, (a formal qualification but that doesnt mean much) i have a computer with CAD software and im about to purchase a machine (tho i have friends with them)
I have friends within the LMA and friends into aero and scale modelling.

Its a joint project with a few friends but it wont be very large(ish). It wont be a flyer so it doesnt have to be aerodynamic in any way.

I have an image in my head what i want iit to be, and ive got a bit of support.
I think the best thing would be to get some form of book used by engineers on thee a/c that give all the dimensions as there are no survivors.

Weston Zoyland had lots of Mustangs 1’s and i cant think of anyway to represent the type (plus its something ive wanted to do)

any more q’s?

Thanks for the help and comments

668
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Wellbutrin Problems

Time On Your Hands

Thanks for info, its for a modelling project of mine.

I am trying to do an accurate scale model of a mark 1, so i need to get the proper dimensions and scale them down.

Do you think the owners of the XP-51 could give me that info?

Kev35 nice to see you have lots of time on your hands, shame i dont.

Thanks for the help

XH668: Shame you don’t have lots of time on your hands …..

Do you have any idea of what’s involved in chasing down examples of the P-51, obtaining permission to photograph and take measurements off them, and the amount of research into the construction of the aircraft it would take in order for you to develop your own accurate scale drawings?

When you’ve got the measurements, and I’d be most interested in the techniques you’d use to accurately obtain them, how are you going to do the drawing, loft the fuselage bulkheads, plot the airfoil stations, etc.? Are you going to do your drafting manually or are you going to spend the time to acquire CAD skills?

Please don’t think for a minute that I’m trying to discourage you. In fact, I myself have spent a number of years researching a certain well-known military trainer, taking photographs and measurements in order to develop my own drawings. I’m simply curious as to whether you fully understand what you’re getting into.

My project initially began with a photo copy of a page out of an issue of Janes because I could find no accurate drawings for the aircraft of my choice. (There still aren’t any accurate drawings available.) The page in Janes listed the aircraft specifications and included a tiny three-view drawing that in my naivety I believed could be enlarged with sufficient accuracy. How wrong I was! That was a number of years ago and the beginning of a journey which along the way, rudimentary CAD skills were acquired, along with a wealth of knowledge concerning this particular aircraft. We’re talking years here!

Are you willing to invest an enormous amount of time? And acquire the necessary skills?

As a matter of fact, it would be an interesting new thread to hear from enthusiasts who have done just that; people who have measured actual aircraft and have developed accurate scale drawings on their own. It would be interesting, for example, to find out and compare the various methods and techniques used in obtaining accurate measurements.

How is it done?

Do you jack up the airplane and drop plumb lines onto the ground? How do you measure a fin and rudder when you’re standing on the ground? How do you obtain fuselage contours and bulkhead cross-sections?

Anybody out there want to jump in on this?

Or if you are feeling rich this lot might be able to help you..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/P-51-Mustang-Blueprints-A-B-C-D-Versions_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ26439QQihZ018QQitemZ280229097349QQtcZphoto

Tried here???
http://www.onerateads.com/RC-431-WBIRDS.htm

If you’re building a model of the P-51 try Googling Arthur Bentley. He sells scale drawings of a number of aircraft, including the P-51. Arthur’s drawings are virtual works of art, the best, bar none!
Here, I’ve done it for you!

http://www.albentley-drawings.com/

Thats amazing thank you, i will contact him as he has the drawings 🙂

Im a happy bunny
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Xdrive

Scale Drawings

If you’re building a model of the P-51 try Googling Arthur Bentley. He sells scale drawings of a number of aircraft, including the P-51. Arthur’s drawings are virtual works of art, the best, bar none!
Here, I’ve done it for you!

http://www.albentley-drawings.com/

Steve.

I see your point. But that can go wrong too. You ask a question on a forum and one person quotes you chapter and verse on the subject. Brilliant. But what if that is misinformation too? It happens.

Maybe it’s just me, I find I learn quicker and better if I at least try to do some of the groundwork myself. Knowing that you’ve done some of the work yourself also gives a greater understanding of the subject, as well as teaching you how to discover things for yourself.

I’ll happily admit that I’m not too proud to ask for help. I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again. And it’s fora such as this one which gives you an easy opportunity to increase your own knowledge, and occasionally be of some assistance to others.

Regards,

kev35

I find that too. When my boys were at school they’d ask me what a word meant rather than get the dictionary out, my answer was to look it up for themselves because if they had to make a bit of an effort to find out they would remember the answer a lot easier and it’s worked. I don’t know why it works but it does.

If you take a look at this site 1/4 of the page down you can see a short piece about WZ mustangs with a small pic thats what im going for just on a largeish scale

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000/01/stuff_eng_profile_mustang3.htm

Thanks
668
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Lovely Wendie

I think Colford has a made a point that has been possibly overlooked.
Making an assumption on XH668’s behalf here, I’m guessing he is reffering to the Mustang I as operated by the RAF (inc RCAF) and not the prototype XP-51 (originally made to British requirements, I know)

Yes the assumption was right a mark 1 mustang flown by the RAF, what i need is all of the measurements to make a detailed model of the a/c. So i wondered if anyone had that information somewhere or can recommed somewhere to get that information from?

I would like to make a “large model” which is what the LMA do, i have spoken to a number of them and what i need is dimensions of pretty much everything.

After posting this i thought would there be an old book that engineers might of had which gave all of the dimensions?

Thanks to everyone whos posted so far
668
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How To Use A Vaporite

Mustang query

as theres so much Mustang talk at the mo, I got quite a few to look at that came down in ww2 in the south west, mostly allison engined ones too,

i have “Most” of the basic information from various researches, but any Sqaudron Historians Might have that Little bit more
most losses in this area are 16 sqn, although there are others,
1 story i would like to find more out about is that of Mustang AL959,
she was of 170 Sqn, i believe formed at Westonzoyland, which crashed/Ditched, on 13th of Jan 1943, Sqt Allison Killed, it is believed he tried to make a force landing in the river severn, and did succeed, but he never had his safety harness on, they say in the force of the crash he hit his head on the Panel/Gunsite, and was killed pretty much instantly, a crew rowed out to save him, finding the aircraft just offshore, they recovered his body and rowed back to shore, but when the aircraft recovery team had arrived, the aircraft had disapeared, also the tide had been in and out again since the crash,
can anyone shed any light on this one, I have done my day skipper course ,
but i dont own a boat, theres a few in the channel i would love to investigate on a good day, i imagine a rib craft would be the best bet for searching on the spring tides, any takers ??, put a small team together to hunt,
PS
I know the rough location of this one, but am keeping it quiet for obvious reasons ,

I think Colford has a made a point that has been possibly overlooked.
Making an assumption on XH668’s behalf here, I’m guessing he is reffering to the Mustang I as operated by the RAF (inc RCAF) and not the prototype XP-51 (originally made to British requirements, I know)

what type of model ??

Hi Matt,

what type of model are you making/looking for ??, is it a plastic kit, or a “Gullows ” type rubber band flyer, or a fully working Radio controlled scale model,

you want to try various Modelling sites,
for plastic kits one of the biggest selers in the country is Hannants
heres there web site,

http://www.hannants.co.uk/

they do all sorts of plastic kit conversions etc , even parts like engines etc for 1/72 scale models, there are others
Radio controlled well theres loads of magazines with suppliers of plans and drawings you could use ,
found this site on the web, but i bet theres better ones

http://www.xlistplans.demon.co.uk/

depends what you want, i would go out and buy a relevant Magazine, and then search the adverts within the magazine on the web, you might be lucky,
i dont think it would be too hard to find early P51, there out there somewhere.
hope this is of help,;)

Try the MustangsMustangs web site:

http://mustangsmustangs.us/

Mustang Mk.1 Suvivors – Nil

There are no surviving Mustang Mk.1 aircraft as operated by the RAF. The aircraft preserved in the USA is a XP-51 which is a prototype aircraft with a number of detail differences to the Mustang Mk.1 as operated by the RAF.

There are no surviving Mustang Mk.1A or straight P-51 aircraft – which is the 4 x 20mm cannon armed version as used by the RAF and USAAF.

There are a couple of P-51A survivors in the USA (equivalent to the RAF Mustang Mk.II) but none of the RAF Mk.IIs survived. At least one of the flying P-51A survivors is not representative of the type as it uses a number of P-51D components and is not an accurate representation in outline or operating characteristics.

Effectively at the end of the War or earlier, all the surviving RAF Allison Mustangs were scrapped. Very little remains of them other than what a number of aviation archaeology groups have dug up from crash sites around the UK.

The books that have been recommended are good sources of information. If you are looking to build models of RAF Mustangs for a museum display, Hobbycraft of Canada is due to release 1/32nd scale plastic model kits of the Mustang Mk.1, Mk.1A and Mk.II (the last in the guise of a P-51A) before the end of this year. Otherwise in the smaller 1/48th scale, Accurate Miniatures doe some nice kits of the Mk.1A and P-51 (Mk.II) and a company called Ultracast does a resin conversion ket to convert the Mk.1A kit into a Mk.1 – but some modelling skills required.

HTH,

.
It always amuses me that some people seem to be rather aggrieved (agrieved – edit lol) their viewing time is taken up reading posts requesting “easy to find elsewhere” information, but the same people always have the time to log on, and post a message telling the enquirer to search the topic via “thread archive” or “google”, before asking such questions in the forum.

If a topic is “uninteresting”, or the enquirer being “lazy”, simply leave the unaswered post to die a natural death? or for someone else to reply?

A forum was recently described elsewhere as being akin to a chat “down the pub”, (other than your conversation is publicised worldwide, and left up for posterity.)

The quality of the discussions, and the naivety (niavety -edited lol) of the questions raised can vary accordingly.

The forum will attract people of various ages and expertises in the subject matter, if someone asks “Dorothy Dicks” questions or starts a thread that was beaten to death by analysis in 2002 what does it matter? surely those who “cant be bothered”, “wont be bothered”, and those “who can” – “will”.

While information anywhere on the NET should be questioned for its accuracy, the responses in a forum are only as good as the person typing at the other end of the keyboard (much the same in the pub), and as raised above, should not be taken to be more authoritative than more formally structured and “published” texts on the web (which are likely to have some level of research underpinning their claims.)

Though a heavy “surfer” of the Net and digester of aviation information online, which includes surfing google via keywords just for fun, I personally still prefer to independantly reference such information back to a bound book of some description if I am relying on it in any way.

Similarly there is sometimes a “school master” approach by some people on forums to correct minute facts (including grammar and spelling) of such posters, that seem more about evidencing the corrector’s “pre-eminence” in the topic rather than maintaining a clean flow of communication.
(often referred to as “pissing competitions” smiles)

However, despite all of the above, it is always good manners to be polite and thankful to someone who has chosen to take his own time to research information for you, regardless of that coming from his own knowledge, his book collection or simply his online search engine?

And yes I do agree that if you are computer literate “enough” to read and post at a forum you are probably able to master the art “keyword searches” on Google prior to posting the question here – but then do you ensure you do the same thing before asking such a question down the pub?

regards

Mark Pilkington