Hello,
I’ve seen a couple of previous threads on this from four years ago or so, and again this is the story of the Heinkel 111 that was brought down by Peter Ayerst in August, 1940.
I’m involved in the cgi for a Granada regional history series called ‘Lost Treasures’, and including this story was my idea…..largely because my Dad, as a 10 year old at the time, saw a Heinkel flying very low over the rooftops from his house in an area of Chester called Hoole, at around this time, so we’re thinking there’s a very fair chance this is the Heinkel that he saw.
As ever, suggesting the story opened a right Pandora’s Box as I now have barely a week to deliver a 20-30 secs. sequence to accompany the interview with my Dad – unfortunately the research as I presented it doesn’t mention even half the detail of the story, as it now is in the final edit, as ever with this series, alot of stories get covered in relatively little detail.
We cannot be sure that the Heinkel that Dad saw was this one, though a friend at the museum in Chester unearthed a record of another Heinkel sighting at what we think was the same time, and therefore likely the same one, over the suburb of Vicars Cross. If they are one and the same, and Dad remembers it was late afternoon, then he must have seen it as it arrived in the area, prior to bombing RAF Sealand – he saw it heading east (the crewman in the top turret waved at him!), and curiously enough Vicars Cross is somewhat south-east of Hoole, so maybe it was turning for its run on RAF Sealand, over in the west.
In the longer term, I’d like to do a webpage and a fuller sequence than will go in ‘Lost Treasures’, and have that on the webpage as well…..but the Pandora’s Box is the detail: I think we have the squadron markings for the Heinkel OK, but I cannot find what the markings are likely to have been on the Spitfires that intercepted it, and I mean primarily the squadron markings.
I need to research this alot more for the fuller account on the webpage, and to be honest for the sequence, I will have to design shots that keep the camera away from seeing too much of the aircraft detail as there hasn’t been time to build our own detailed models – we’re using low quality bought models…..but if possible I would like to get some semblance of the fact into the Spitfires, so I’d appreciate any help, if anyone knows this. I’ve found lists of squadron markings for Bomber Command, but not Fighter Command, and although an ex-RAF friend has given me some leads to follow-up, there really isn’t time for that before I have to get these shots done.
Thanks!
Julian.
By: Arabella-Cox - 7th April 2008 at 19:49
Thanks! I don’t think I’ve ever seen those markings/colours on a Spit, or anything else for that matter. I’ll stay with the BoB scheme for this sequence, but I might re-surface a copy of the model later like this, just to see how it looks!
As I mentioned, I’ll expand on this sequence later anyway, but hadn’t yet fully thought what I might include. There are alot of details that have been left out for the telling in ‘Lost Treasures’, unfortunately, and I had ideas for shots which are now not needed. So to keep the story remembered, and because my Dad probably witnessed a fraction of it, I intend to create a fuller sequence and webpage for it.
Julian.
By: northeagle - 7th April 2008 at 12:15
Hi Julian,
I have attached a pic of the ‘jumper’. Photo was taken in 1941 so, out of your period maybe but still of interest. Photo appeared in Flypast January 1990, p54 and again in Flypast May 1990, p 55. Stripes and spinner was red, white and blue and flown on 46 occasions by ‘Ginger’ Lacey. At the time of the article, Spitfire AR 213 was owned by Victor Gauntlet and had appeared in the film ‘Battle Of Britain’.
Best Wishes.
Robert.
By: Arabella-Cox - 7th April 2008 at 09:36
OK! Thanks very much Tom – that is what I have done, and despite the models being very basic, they look OK for this sequence!
Aces High Aviation Art has some truly inspiring imagery!
…..and thanks very much to everyone for your help as well – I’m still stunned about those two photos, and very pleased – I hate having to make stuff up when we’re doing this kind of thing…..intelligent guesswork is one thing, but there are some things that are either right or wrong, and squadron codes would be one of those 🙂
Julian.
By: Tom_W - 6th April 2008 at 21:24
Hello Julian,
The Spit in question would be in the standard BofB scheme I’d say, that would be black spinner, Sky undersides and Dark Earth/Dark Green topsides, have a look at:
http://www.aceshighgallery.co.uk/pinfo/380
for a rough idea of what the basic scheme would look like:
http://brew.clients.ch/Markings41.htm
One thing I’d be interested to know is whether any other Spits at 7/57 OTU had bright coloured spinners during 1940 as IIRC one of the Spits George Unwin of 19 Sqn collected from the unit after swapping it for a misbehaving cannon-armed MKIb had a yellow spinner which was ‘applied when in use by 7 OTU’.
Don’t worry about having to apply any stripes as they didn’t come along until over a year later 😉
Atcham Tower is correct regarding the background buildings, IIRC they were part of the Vickers Wellington works and the Maintenance Unit also based there.
Tom
By: Atcham Tower - 6th April 2008 at 19:49
In case there is any doubt, those photos were definitely taken at Hawarden. The background buildings still exist.
By: Arabella-Cox - 6th April 2008 at 19:35
Hi Julian,
The white band you refer to was sky type S added to fighter aircraft in November 1940. The multi colour spinner was in fact: red, white and blue. The cowling is covered with a cover but, if you look near the bottom there is also a horizontal white line. This was part of the red, white and blue stripes which were from the prop to the cockpit.
Two photos of this Spitfire appear in two copies of Flypast c 1980s. The code was JZ followed, I think, by Z. This Spitfire was identified in the Flypast article as being the OTU ‘Jumper’ flown at one time by Ginger Lacey: if I remember right it’s still around. Bit of waffle but it may be of interest.Best Wishes.
Robert.
Hello Robert,
Ah right – thanks! Well, this is August 1940, so I will leave the band off!
However, I didn’t know about the red, white and blue stripes from the prop to the cockpit – can you point me to any reference for that, or was this also something added after August?
Not waffle at all! Very useful! This is the problem with recreating the past – it’s all well and good describing something, or an event, but when you need to see it, all kinds of questions suddenly crop-up…..hence the Pandora’s Box thing!
Julian.
By: northeagle - 6th April 2008 at 19:18
Hi Julian,
The white band you refer to was sky type S added to fighter aircraft in November 1940. The multi colour spinner was in fact: red, white and blue. The cowling is covered with a cover but, if you look near the bottom there is also a horizontal white line. This was part of the red, white and blue stripes which were from the prop to the cockpit.
Two photos of this Spitfire appear in two copies of Flypast c 1980s. The code was JZ followed, I think, by Z. This Spitfire was identified in the Flypast article as being the OTU ‘Jumper’ flown at one time by Ginger Lacey: if I remember right it’s still around. Bit of waffle but it may be of interest.
Best Wishes.
Robert.
By: Arabella-Cox - 6th April 2008 at 19:00
Hello Tom,
This is great – thank you very much indeed!
JZ-R for one Spitfire, Ayerst’s, seems fair enough then…..the other two I will have to just make up for now, ie. JZ-? !!
Presumably these photos are of RAF Hawarden? These photos show additional markings that I hadn’t been aware of – the white stripe towards the rear of the fuselage, and the two-colour propeller cone, though I recall reading that was a feature of training aircraft.
Oddly enough, now you mention it, I think Dad mentioned something about a print – he doesn’t have a copy, but I’ll ask the local archives office and people I know at the Museum to see if they have one. Dad seeing this Heinkel as a boy and the crewman waving at him is a story he told me years ago. Peter Ayerst and the Heinkel crew had a reunion in Chester in 1988 I think, and with hindsight I thought it was a pity that it hadn’t been possible to ask the German crew if one of them remembered waving at a small boy in a back-garden!
Anyway, I’m in the thick of texturing the Spitfire right now, so this is very useful – thanks again!
Julian.
By: Tom_W - 6th April 2008 at 18:09
Hello Julian,
This subject has been discussed before:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34094
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42926
and from the info on Ayerst in Aces High it seems like he was flying a Spit coded ‘R’, unfortunately no further details other than the codes used by the unit were: JZ-, LV-, PW- or XO-.
The attached photo courtesy of Snapper and Jim shows a JZ- coded spit, possibly a roughly painted ‘R’?
I do recall seeing an artist’s print on this subject some years ago but cannot find anything on it now.
Tom
Tom
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April 6, 2008 at 4:59 pm