Marlin submarine

Turbinia, I think ANY country in that region has better things to spend his money on than weapons. That is also why our governments are trying to limit sales to such countries nowadays. On the other hand US and Russia don’t care, so then it’s mopping with the tap open! It has more to do with history and pride than anything else. I still find a paper to collect clothes for India once a month in my mailbox (same with collections for Pakistan etc.). But hey, opinions differ among the world’s leaders and people and I don’t think it’s up to us to tell them what to spend their money on. If they want to pay us for weapons, then we should deliver.

Maybe they should have other priorities but history tells us that they like buying weapons, and pakistan tends to consider India a security threat- in case you havnt noticed there is a little bit of history between those two countries.

Quite. Perhaps the world media should include a list of the defence programs that country is finding funds for (F16 fighters, SSK submarines etc.) and show it on screen under President Musharaff next time he is berating the world for not giving his country enough money for disaster relief, just so the world can see where their government is electing to spend their funds.

I’d have thought that considering the earthquake aftermath and the current security threat to Pakistan they’d have other priorities.

Maybe they should have other priorities but history tells us that they like buying weapons, and pakistan tends to consider India a security threat- in case you havnt noticed there is a little bit of history between those two countries.

I’d have thought that considering the earthquake aftermath and the current security threat to Pakistan they’d have other priorities.

So it was based on FACT then? So, tell me, what real facts have you read in the article I translated??? Except for some obscure source and a bunch of could’s, I haven’t really seen many facts there. Well of course Chile has 2 Scorpenes and India will have 6 and Malaysia 2, but otherwise, little or nothing that really goes about facts. I did however see Indians get upset that France would sell “upgraded or Improved Scorpenes” to Pakistan, which would then be better than their own boats… All based on pure fact I guess.

A lot of fuss but all in all just a fart in a bottle.
Now Pakistan even starts asking for a specific propellor, if they all know it so well, why don’t they just make it themselves. (of course they will have to pay for such things), what I don’t really get in this whole story is that the first article mentions the Germans and Spanish as competition to this sub, but all in all Pakistan can’t afford to just toss away a French sub specifically designed to their demands. So actually there is no competition I guess… If DCN just follows the demands, then of course the sub will be better suiting these demands than the other general designs.

All I’m saying is, if there is no real information, then there is no reason to worry, argue or discuss anything. Don’t stick your nose where it doesn’t belong. This is all just a game as you might start realising.

SPECULATION-

1) Pakistan is likely to want a better boat than the Scorpene, partly to satisfie its ego and partly for operational needs.

2) There seems to be a feeling that the T214 is a better vessel than the Scorpene therefore putting the Scorpene at disadvantage in the export market. Thus it would be preferable for DCN to design a new boat.

3)France is working on a new SSN design (fact) the technology for this is likely to be transferred into a future export SSK design.

The above is called situational analysis, under which we can SPECULATE that it is likely that there is a desire at the very least if not an effort to bring about a ‘new’ design on the part of DCN. I never said that DCN was developing the boat for pakistan, just that it may be offered to pakistan, What is wrong with that? :rolleyes:

So it was based on FACT then? So, tell me, what real facts have you read in the article I translated??? Except for some obscure source and a bunch of could’s, I haven’t really seen many facts there. Well of course Chile has 2 Scorpenes and India will have 6 and Malaysia 2, but otherwise, little or nothing that really goes about facts. I did however see Indians get upset that France would sell “upgraded or Improved Scorpenes” to Pakistan, which would then be better than their own boats… All based on pure fact I guess.

A lot of fuss but all in all just a fart in a bottle.
Now Pakistan even starts asking for a specific propellor, if they all know it so well, why don’t they just make it themselves. (of course they will have to pay for such things), what I don’t really get in this whole story is that the first article mentions the Germans and Spanish as competition to this sub, but all in all Pakistan can’t afford to just toss away a French sub specifically designed to their demands. So actually there is no competition I guess… If DCN just follows the demands, then of course the sub will be better suiting these demands than the other general designs.

All I’m saying is, if there is no real information, then there is no reason to worry, argue or discuss anything. Don’t stick your nose where it doesn’t belong. This is all just a game as you might start realising.

Ok, to get rid of this speculation on a speculation on a speculation (which I fairly hate on this forum as its only fueled by I-wish people thinking about their own super sub). Here is where it started:

La Tribune, a French paper that found a leak (actually just a name) and wrote this speculative article:

I translated it for you, not really my language (but I should normally know it), if there are any major mistakes I guess I’ll hear it from our French collegues here!

So, as you can see, many COULDs in there… Lots of speculation and actually nothing really concrete there. All it says is that there is a study going on to see if they can meet a requirement from Pakistan. Which means, there is hardly anything on paper and hence even less to discuss or dream about than Borei or Yasen.

There is nothing wrong with speculation when it is based on fact or situational analysis rather than want, none of the above was based on want.

From Defense News

Islamabad Wants U.S. Harpoon Missiles To Arm Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.

But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile maker MBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.

Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.

“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.

A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.

Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.

In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.
“It’s good news,” he said.

Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment

Obstacles

Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.

Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.

Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.

Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.

Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.

These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.

But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.

“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”
Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.

One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •

Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.

Ok, to get rid of this speculation on a speculation on a speculation (which I fairly hate on this forum as its only fueled by I-wish people thinking about their own super sub). Here is where it started:

La Tribune, a French paper that found a leak (actually just a name) and wrote this speculative article:

La Tribune – article du 20/NaN/1/11
DCN travaille sur un projet de nouveau sous-marin

Ce projet de DCN, dont le nom de code est Marlin, pourrait être proposé au Pakistan.

Dans un marché naval très porteur, DCN travaille, selon nos informations, sur un projet de sous-marin qui pourrait succéder à l’exportation au Scorpène franco-espagnol à propulsion classique, déjà acheté par le Chili (pour deux exemplaires), la Malaisie (deux) et l’Inde (six). Ce projet, dont le nom de code est Marlin, reste pour l’heure un programme interne de DCN, qui devrait être développé à partir de certaines technologies du Scorpène.

Les Espagnols, qui ont un programme concurrent en cours de développement, le S80, et ont préféré des groupes américains en tant que fournisseurs du système d’armes, n’ont pas été invités à participer à ce nouveau projet.

Le projet Marlin répond de façon précise à une demande officielle du Pakistan qui veut, en acquérant 3 à 5 bâtiments, poursuivre son effort d’équipement après l’achat de trois sous-marins Agosta à la France en 1994 pour 820 millions d’euros. Les Espagnols et les Allemands sont déjà sur les rangs. Paris ayant vendu le Scorpène à l’Inde, il lui faut un autre matériel pour répondre à la demande d’Islamabad. Le Marlin serait donc tout indiqué.

Problème pour DCN : elle n’a pas obtenu de feu vert afin de pouvoir exporter ce matériel. Le conseiller diplomatique et sherpa du chef de l’État, Maurice Gourdault-Montagne, s’est opposé ces derniers mois à la plupart des demandes d’exportation émanant de groupes français en direction du Pakistan, préférant privilégier les liens commerciaux avec l’Inde. Une réunion tenue avant Noël à l’Élysée n’a rien changé. DCN n’a donc pas encore reçu d’agrément de la Commission interministérielle pour l’étude des exportations de matériels de guerre (CIEMG).

Concurrence internationale. Or, le Scorpène se heurte désormais à la concurrence de nouveaux modèles étrangers sur un marché des sous-marins en très forte croissance. De très nombreux pays ont lancé ou étudient des projets d’acquisition. Dans ce cadre, les équipes commerciales d’Armaris, société commune entre Thales et DCN, attendent beaucoup des appels d’offres lancés au Brésil, au Venezuela (pour quatre unités) et au Chili (pour deux sous-marins supplémentaires). Des pays du Moyen-Orient (Arabie Saoudite, Émirats arabes unis) réfléchissent aussi à la création de sous-marinades.

I translated it for you, not really my language (but I should normally know it), if there are any major mistakes I guess I’ll hear it from our French collegues here!

La Tribune
DCN is working on a project for a new submarine

This project of DCN, which has the codename Marlin, COULD be offered to Pakistan.

In a heavy Naval market, DCN is working, according to OUR informations, on a submarine project that COULD supersede the export of Scorpene, a Franco-Spanish submarine with Classic propulsion (read Diesel-electric), already bought by Chile (2), Malaysia (2) and India (6). This project, of which the codename is Marlin, remains at this moment an INTERNAL program of DCN, which COULD be developed starting from certain technologies of Scorpene.

The Spanish, which have a competing programme under development, the S80, and which prefer the Americans to deliver the weapon systems, have not been invited for participation on this new project.

The Marlin project answers on a precise official demand from Pakistan which, by buying 3 to 5 boats, wants to continue its equipment effort after the acquisition of 3 Agosta submarine from France in 1994 for 820mlln euro. The Spanish and the Germans are already there with offers. Paris, having sold the Scorpene to India, needs a different design to answer the demand of Islamabad. The Marlin is indicated for this.

The Problem for DCN: It did not receive the green light for the export of this design. The diplomatic council and second in line of the Minister of State, Maurice Gourdault-Montagne, has opposed most of the export demands of French companies to Pakistan in the last months, privileging the commercial ties with India. A gathering before Christmas in Paris hasn’t changed anything and DCN still didn’t reach an agreement with the Commision of Ministers for the Export of weapons.

International competition. However, the Scorpene is rising, even with the competition of new foreign models on a submarine market that is strongly growing. Lots of countries have launched or studied projects for the acquisition of submarines. In this background, the commercial group of Armaris (Common society of Thales and DCN), has received many requests from Brazil, Venezuele (4 units) and Chile (2 additional Units). Countries from the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, UAE) are thinking about the creation of a submarine fleet/arm.

So, as you can see, many COULDs in there… Lots of speculation and actually nothing really concrete there. All it says is that there is a study going on to see if they can meet a requirement from Pakistan. Which means, there is hardly anything on paper and hence even less to discuss or dream about than Borei or Yasen.

Wasn’t the Marlin one of the types offered to the Republic of China Navy (Taiwan) about a decade ago but then the French changed their mind due to China’s presuring.

Almost certainly a different design with the name now being re-used. The current design is supposedly being offered to pakistan.

Yes, China offering to buy lots of A320s, A330s, A340s and A380s trumps selling a few subs to Taiwan.

Unicorn

Wasn’t the Marlin one of the types offered to the Republic of China Navy (Taiwan) about a decade ago but then the French changed their mind due to China’s presuring.

There is very little available about this project. At them moment it is purely a paper design. It is possible to assume that it is intended to be a better boat than the Type-214 which is regarded as a superior boat to the Scorpene by many. It will likely take technology and expertise from the research being done for frances next generation SSN’s.