Me-262 versus P-80A

The P-80 modified as a racer is today in the MNUSAF at Dayton.

The P-80 in the that pic is the prototype, not a racer. The Me-262 had very unreliable engines, and while the engine in the P-80 was basically of the same generation it had much greater reliability.

The simple reason is that the Me-262 used the Jumo axial flow engine whose design parameters were far in excess of its components to deliver. Main problem was poor strength alloys in the compressor blades, if they didn’t expand and hit the casing they broke and went through the casing.

On the other hand the P-80 has a workmanlike Whittle designed centrifugal flow engine which although primitive by our current standards didn’t attempt to overstretch the technological envelope and thus was more reliable.

The reality was that the Me-262 was half a generation behind the P-80. Also as to finish – the 262s came from the factory with their panel joins sealed and taped. If Hughes did that to his, which is conjectural at best, he was only doing what Messershmidt had done in the first place.

But if we compare the performance to each other, there is no need in comparing reliability. The severe shortage of resources had a big influence on the Me-262. But some hours of flight were done and there must be something like an assessment of the Me-262 perfomance compared to the equally old P-80.

Here’s Howard’s 262 and a shot of a possible racing Star, I am not sure what it was really, But if Mr Rob or anyone else know’s please tell us all.

The P-80 in the that pic is the prototype, not a racer. The Me-262 had very unreliable engines, and while the engine in the P-80 was basically of the same generation it had much greater reliability.

The simple reason is that the Me-262 used the Jumo axial flow engine whose design parameters were far in excess of its components to deliver. Main problem was poor strength alloys in the compressor blades, if they didn’t expand and hit the casing they broke and went through the casing.

On the other hand the P-80 has a workmanlike Whittle designed centrifugal flow engine which although primitive by our current standards didn’t attempt to overstretch the technological envelope and thus was more reliable.

The reality was that the Me-262 was half a generation behind the P-80. Also as to finish – the 262s came from the factory with their panel joins sealed and taped. If Hughes did that to his, which is conjectural at best, he was only doing what Messershmidt had done in the first place.

Wake Up, Thread!

I just had a discussion with some German fellows about performance of the Me-262 and I argueed that the P-80 was not too far behind. Can anyone provide some sort of believable assessment of the P-80 vs. the Me-262?

In my opinion the engines were really a pain in the (you know what) at that time. The early types were replaced by better more powerful versions annually. So I think the engine biassed the result so much, that comparison is difficult at best.

While dive speed was determined by many factors (I heard ~M0.84 for Me-262), the horizontal speed was mainly limited by engine power versus transonic drag rise, a thing the swept wing changes. But the 18.5° sweep only brought a saving of 5%.

For testing in USA after the war, standard Me-262 was used. Official statement was that it is greatly superior than P-80.
That is understandable because standard Me-262 had Mach limit 0,86 against 0,79 for P-80. That were dive limits at higher altitudes.

But, does anybody know what were figures for speed in level flight for P-80 in fly-off ?

Official figure for sea level speed for P-80A (895 km/h) reffer to dive limit at sea level. In level flight at sea level it was far slower than Me-262 which had 825 km/h.

On the part of streamlining; I have two Polish works on the 262 I cannot read but show quite some work on streamlined 262’s with what seems to be a lowered canopy. These were mostly the V-(versuchs) versions named the Heimatschutzer (Homelanddefender).

The low drag canopy was fitted to Me262 V12 for aerodynamic and high speed testing up to the a/c mach limitation, 624 mph being attained at Leipheim, July 6 1944.

262’s Star’s

Very interesting stuff guy’s 🙂

Now that would be a great and very rare shot Bert 😀 .

I alway’s assumed he did get to fly it, but not race it as it would have made the Yanky plane’s not look so good in the public’s eye’s :rolleyes: .

Now I know from ChuckY that the early engine’s for the Shooting Star were nearly as bad as the Jumo, He had to fix them all the time :p .

Here’s Howard’s 262 and a shot of a possible racing Star, I am not sure what it was really, But if Mr Rob or anyone else know’s please tell us all. :confused:

Cheer’s all 😀 , Tally :dev2: Ho! :dev2: Ho! Phil :diablo: .

I have seen quite a bit of allied 262’s but never in flight, and never in combination with the P80. Do any exist of them side by side?

On the part of streamlining; I have two Polish works on the 262 I cannot read but show quite some work on streamlined 262’s with what seems to be a lowered canopy. These were mostly the V-(versuchs) versions named the Heimatschutzer (Homelanddefender).

The nose was changed, much service gear (armour?) was said to have been removed, and various seams were apparently filled with putty (or similar) before the aircraft was polished. Hughes was said to be very taken with the Me262, so the news that he didn’t actually fly it seems surprising given his enthusiasm, – Nermal

http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html#m10

” After the war, Me-262s that had fallen into Allied hands were evaluated by flight test groups, one of the best-known being a USAAF team named “Watson’s Whizzers”, led by Colonel Harold E. “Hal” Watson of USAAF Air Technical Intelligence.
The tests there included a competitive fly-off against a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star jet fighter that demonstrated the general superiority of the Me-262. “

This is well known, but does anybody have figures.
Story about Howard Hughes denial to race with Me-262 is true.

Wasn’t Howard Hughes forbidden by the air force from racing a much lightened Me262 in a race with a P80 that might have been souped up? – Nermal

Well here’s what Chuck Yeager said in his book, ” I was among the first Mustang pilot’s to shoot one down in the War, so I was facinated to discover that the 262 and the Shooting Star performed identically-the same range, top speed, acceleration, and rate of climb ” from the book” Yeager “.

Cheer’s all, Tally Ho! Ho! Phil.