Measured responses please

To quote the OP.

“The military vehicle / 1940’s re-enacting scene is booming at the moment and is expanding exponentially, I would hope the aero boys will get on board, sadly I feel that I already know they won’t”.

Mike Eastman has taken his Spit replica to quite a few ’40’s weekends. I know I have been with him!

Sorry I have forgotten his name but a gentleman has taken his Griffon 58 and has done engine runs with it.

Also BBFM have done flyovers with the Dakota and Spits. Ooop north it’s happening. :stupid:

Nitty-Grittying

“What I’d like to see is us as a hobby/obsession be more outward looking, attend more events that aren’t solely aviation, even offering to attend. Then maybe if we did dry up and disappear people would miss us.”

Unless someone lives locally to Shoreham with a cockpit its unlikely they will attend as its time, planning and logistics and tellingly, fuel to consider. I’d love to exhibit my cockpit there but my situation is a bit awkward as its in a Suffolk museum and I live in London – the museum is closed on Fridays/Saturdays while Shoreham is a one-dayer and a weekend display would be needed to make the trek worthwhile in terms of effort alone.

Even if my fuel was paid for the logistics and physical demands of taking it to and from a shared military event closer to home in Essex or surrounding areas, would still be a lot of effort. As Andy says, another problem is that I go to Shoreham to buy too, but some time could be found to open it up in between rummaging kit later in the day I hope! There are many practicalities and while my experiences at the Newark Cockpit Fest in 2012 when taking the Sea Hawk there meant that it was a good time, I couldn’t do it very often as I have too many other things on and out-goings on my plate (including finding a job) along with those physical distances, logistics and costs involved, to input into it.

Living nearer and having my own storage/garage facility would make this much more doable of course – but then the public wouldn’t get to see the cockpit at the museum throughout the year, which is a big personal reason for preserving aviation heritage. Cockpits don’t go to the great scrapyard in the sky, they usually pass on when their owners pass on or they are sold beforehand for other reasons. Some of the aircraft types David lists like the Defiant are fledgling projects I agree, but equally others like Harrier and Anson are already viable cockpits which are coming along on their refurbishment – I agree David, its good to annoy some dealers too as that’s a two-way thing!

Its an obvious drawback that a cockpit can’t move under its own power and that’s understandably part of the attraction of military vehicles as discussed, especially some of the lighter stuff like jeeps, though they must have to be worked on before events and will suffer from breakdowns here and there. Most cockpit owners I know who have one or above, are with museums too or have more land and are ‘up north’ and/or well away from London, where things are cheaper to live and rent storage from if needed.

I’ve been told that many cockpit people don’t want to ‘get in’ with military people which adds to the niche element they are looked on as dealing in – but some of this is due to the fact that some museums have had less than happy experiences in partnering with the military side on dual events. I’d like to make it clear that not all aviation people are against joint affairs and I personally would be happy to try taking my cockpit to a show if it was kept at my own place of abode – we need more exposure. Its impossible for me though some collectors do keep their cockpits privately at their homes, or locally in store – I can’t do that in London and days out of the office to fit in with museum opening times for pick-up & return would be involved also.

I was ‘approached’ a 2nd time recently about appearing at a military event next year after initially sending an initial e-mail explaining all the problems involved, but the 2nd inquiry was just a text message. I again replied to it by e-mail but was told that the sender ‘dosen’t do e-mails’ and that many people do such arrangements by text instead. I don’t I’m afraid and if I’m being asked to bring a sizeable display to a show I’d just expect as a courtesy, a reply with some specific info about it and how I would fit into the mix.

Exactly where I would be required to go to, would I be be parked up van-wise separately, what kind of opening/closing/access times would there be (if nothing was set in stone at this time) and where exactly would the cockpit be displayed, was there Public Liability insurance etc. A standard e-mail letter of introduction/directions held on file to cut and paste as part of the enquiry could easily be sent in a tailored reply and would be a big help.

I know we’re all busy and while receiving a firm booking from a simple text message with so little info on it to date would be a bonus to the sender, its asking a lot of the supplier and I’ve still had no response to my original e-mail which indicates that someone isn’t prepared to put the time into something that I am, which causes some concern. Good to hear the inquirer’s aviation comment though – can we build on this? “To bring new impetus to display of Aeronautical & Cockpits at a show next year – a way of bringing together the vehicle and wartime scene and flying collectors. There’s an incredible amount of interest in their side of things at the moment!”

I agree that many cockpits are not of WW2 era as jets are popular in general (and not as valuable), but insurance costs may be a consideration again – including allowance for domestic arrangements of course. I sorted out my own reasonable Liability Insurance last year when I took mine out for display and if worried about any potential claims, you can just let people look into the cockpit and take pics as they wish. Yes we need to appeal to a wider audience and not appear so ‘nichey’ and “The Cosby Show” sounds interesting.

I totally agree on your 2nd posting Bunsen, and would like to be more outward looking, attend more events that aren’t solely aviation etc but my own particular input would need a lot of planning and costs to consider and like many of us its fitting it in while paying le bills.

Having mentioned all this, I don’t see any reason why certain ‘mixed’ shows can’t be attended (if doable due to museum commitments) and in lieu of a cockpit some of us could certainly look at panel displays, memorabilia, instrumentation, photos etc to add to a Damyns Hall type show of the kind we do already at shows like ‘C.Fest’ and ‘V-Force Reunion’. ‘Time and finances dictate’ as David says, but if we can add our input to non-aviation shows where possible then its a good thing.

Well I’m giving serious consideration to attending Damyns hall next year, anyone want to join me to make an aviation corner?(might have to be a straight) I think as an up and coming show the oportunity exists to get established.

I have watched the growth of the cockpiters for many years and have marvelled at the hard work that people have put in on the many projects over the years and what strikes me about this thread is that in order to survive you have to appeal to a wider audience. That should include what others do so as to enhance what the cockpiters have done and long may they continue, but why shouldn’t they add a few new ideas to the mix so as if to bring a larger following along who would never have seen what these chaps get up to most of the year and be proud to show to the masses and open peoples eyes to what can be a very rewarding hobby.

I would love to attend more events – but it is expensive. I took my collection of Catalina stuff to CockpitFest this year; it was the cheapest show I have done there as it all fitted inside my usual car so only cost £60 in diesel – that said, it was not as satisfying as most years. We were as far away from the entrance as you could get! It also went to Felixstowe.

I did the BoB weekend at the RAF Museum with the Mk1 on 15th Sept – it was great fun and we had huge interest which was nice – the down side was van rental plus fuel – so £200 to do.

We use a horse box for local shows. Some of the best fun is at Durrington Village Show.

There are those on this forum who don’t give a monkeys if we fade away – but we do try our bit to further education and fun for future generations. Seeing all sorts of people, young, old, in/out of wheelchairs looking at my spitfire cockpits at Duxford last year made it all worthwhile. Where else can anyone look inside a spitfire like that?

Bunsen:

“Shoreham isn’t too far from Folkestone and Paddock Wood but they attract lots of very large vehicles from all over Europe so why not cockpits to Shoreham, although it will still be almost an aviation only event? There’s enough cheap entertainment in the area, and some very expensive entertainment. There’s even a naturist beach if you’re that way inclined, although March is probably a bit cold for that.“

Having re-read your original post, I am a little unclear on what you might be suggesting for events like Shoreham?

At Shoreham I do allow a certain number of non-aviation-specific militaria traders, and I certainly encourage the attendance of re-enactors, cockpiteers and military vehicle enthusiasts. And obviously so! In fact, a lot of those who attend are re-enactors looking for items and cockpiteers doing the very same. In fact, very many of them!! Part of the problem in encouraging re-enactors or cockpit owners to display or exhibit here is that they simply don’t want to do so at this event – because they are too busy buying (or selling!) to be tied up with exhibits or displays. As for military vehicles, I am not keen on inviting military vehicles in numbers (partly because of certain sensitivity over the ground surface at the site) and I am not sure I want to diversify by including military vehicle parts or having an influx of W&P Show type stalls. I don’t think it would greatly help the event which is, I think, a nice mix of everything aviation. Including cockpit parts and items for cockpit builders.

Change in ownership does not reflect a dying scene…

I don’t recall saying it did. Although i would never call an instrument panel and windscreen a cockpit. For the meaning of ‘cockpit’ i’ve always used Ken Ellis’ description in every Wrecks & Relics as a guide.

After all, its a bit of jump from This to This item.

If i’m wrong, then Ken Ellis may need to invest in a paper mill, and i’d better start writing my submission for the next W&R now to include my ‘air force’ of panels & other detritis !!

Really ? Can you name some examples from the past 12 months DC ?

I’ve only seen a smattering of ownership changes, plus that Tornado cockpit on eBay reduced by 1/3 with still no buyer.

Dave,

Change in ownership does not reflect a dying scene. This would probably annoy dealers, but those interested in long term preservation tend to keep improving on what they have, year upon year.

Every year I’ve been to Newark there have been new types that I never thought I’d see represented.

Just this past 2 years, there have been:

Balliol
Mustang
Wyvvern
Meteor
several Harriers
Stirling
King Cobra
Beagle Pup
Defiant
Anson

Most museums cannot boast this line-up.

….In fact, every year different and more varied types are being collected, re-constructed, and preserved. If anything, this is expanding year upon year. It is far from dying out.

Really ? Can you name some examples from the past 12 months DC ?

I’ve only seen a smattering of ownership changes, plus that Tornado cockpit on eBay reduced by 1/3 with still no buyer.

To quote the friend: “Unless the aero boys take a leap of faith and start to join in with other divergent interests then they are doomed to an ever decreasing series of events and their numbers will start to dwindle as the supply of cockpits dries up completely and the owners literally die off!

I have thought on this for a few days since I first read your post as I was puzzled by the quote shown above.

I don’t think in the UK there is a problem at all with cockpit ownership/preservation? In fact, every year different and more varied types are being collected, re-constructed, and preserved. If anything, this is expanding year upon year. It is far from dying out.

As for engaging with the public at displays, this is entirely up to the cockpit owner. Some base their cockpits permanently at museums where the public have greater access. While in the main, most of us keep them at home or in a workshop as it is the only way we can financially or practically engage in aircraft preservation.

Making the trip to events, several times per year with what are on the whole delicate parts of airframes, is not only a bit of a risk each time, but in many cases a big part of your annual restoration budget! There are some regular events that are well attended every year (Newark’s cockpitfest for example) that provide an annual focal point for the movement, just like Wimbledon does for Tennis.

Some cockpit owners are very motivated to engage with the public at every event they can attend, as many times per year. This is all credit to them. For others, it is a private hobby. Most of us fall somewhere between the two camps, as time and finances dictate.

It is great that the military vehicle scene continues to thrive, but it must be remembered that these vehicles on the whole are a lot more durable when rocking up to event after event. Delicate airframes much lesser so.

I’m rather partial to the Abingdon Air Fayre. Yes there is an airshow but as the whole event is really only a vilage fete on steroids there is much else to keep people interested, classic cars (because it Abingdon there is always a high proportion of MGs), military vehicles and re-enactors, traction engines, off-road tank rides, craft fayre and market stalls. A local cockpiteer regularly turns up with his Hunter and more would be welcome. However my favourites (and considering I’ll be with an aircraft and dressed in a flying suit) tend to be the ferret racing and the dog agility competition.
Military aircarft and re-enactors can work together, I remember many years ago an AOP Auster displaying with a battery of 25 pndr Howitzers, the timing of the pop-up climb to observe the fall of shot was wonderful to watch.

Last year at Damyns hall the Lancaster did three or four passes, at £20 entry fee for a family of four, that probably represents the best value that I know.

There are significant differences between cockpits and military vehicles (I used to display both) much of the heavy stuff is owned by haulier types who just love trucking! and enjoy the opportunity to “plough” someone elses land! the lighter stuff (jeeps etc) are normally self propelled ; much more fun than towing a trailer several hundreds of miles, to then park it in one spot, before towing it several hundred…. well you get the idea!

Event organisers must offer incentives if they want quality exhibits, you can get dozens of jeeps/champs they are fun to drive, and they don’t get stuck.

You really need a 4×4 and a trailer,( which might be permanently attached to you cockpit, thus added expense) and then theres the thorny subject of insurance (try getting your cockpit insured, and you need third party to display it, even if no one can as much as touch it)

I’m impressed, the responses have been good and stayed more or less within the thread, many thanks.

I wasn’t thinking of just military shows, there are others, wings and wheels, events at major historical sites, car shows, the sorts of events where our presence could be mutually beneficial but they don’t know about us. All it would take would be to plant the idea in their minds, if done in the right way we could see a lot more interest in historic aviation and ultimately even more cockpit collectors.

Re the difficulty in moving cockpits, this is an issue but far less of an issue than for many of the large military vehicles and as for tanks, and boats come to that, there’s just no comparison. At the IPMS Nationals in Telford they have had a cockpit and I believe they will have a helicopter or two this year but why not a cockpit or three every year?

I wasn’t talking about Damyns Hall specifically and I don’t know if they want cockpits but they did two or three years ago and put a request on this very forum. I was the only person to reply, my response was maybe next year because of the location and condition of the cockpit but the level of assistance they offered was outstanding.

Shoreham isn’t too far from Folkestone and Paddock Wood but they attract lots of very large vehicles from all over Europe so why not cockpits to Shoreham, although it will still be almost an aviation only event? There’s enough cheap entertainment in the area, and some very expensive entertainment. There’s even a naturist beach if you’re that way inclined, although March is probably a bit cold for that.

I’m told that the small flying display at Damyns Hall lasted two hours, not bad and very expensive for a military show. The lack of a flying display last year was due to the airfield being in the Olympics exclusion zone.

Headcorn is good and has a flying display but on the occasions I’ve been, nothing much on the ground other than the museum.

What I’s like to see is us as a hobby/obsession be more outward looking, attend more events that aren’t solely aviation, even offering to attend. Then maybe if we did dry up and disappear people would miss us.

What Jeepman said, a couple of years back while the tank battle was going on they had a piper cub overhead in its spotting role, an excellent combination.

and Hairyplane last year acting for the other side……

Shoreham is a long way from anywhere??!!

Well, it is quite close to Worthing. :p

Anyway, close enough to the USA, Netherlands, Belgium, New Zealand and Carlisle to already attract (a) punters and (b) stallholders from those locations for 2014! 🙂

What Jeepman said, a couple of years back while the tank battle was going on they had a piper cub overhead in its spotting role, an excellent combination.

There is an interesting parallel between this thread and the trends within the modern UK Armed Forces, where everybody and everything is becoming ‘joint’….Discuss……

Canada has tried it, and contrary to expectations, not many other countries have followed suit.
The biggest obstacle in the UK would be one of heritage…The RN no longer being the Royal Navy? Same (but to a lesser extent due to its rather young age) for the RAF.
Big Ben will be replaced with a digital Casio watch first.

Of course they could d the obvious and merge them…and let them keep their traditional names.

I suspect the problems are the same for exhibiting at purely aviation events, as they are for broader military events, these being, the transport and the accomodation (for two or more days shows) Shoreham is a long where from anywhere, and an event that opens its doors early requires those attending to be there even earlier than most other events, that coupled with the fact that it would only be a one day event, with no evening attraction (for example I believe that Hendon RAFM had a forties band Saturday night).

The Damyns hall military event had vitually zero aviation participation, as was the case last year, although in previous years there was an abundance of Spitfire replicas; I noticed too that XXX aviation prints had a large tent there.

In my view an up and coming event with an airstrip, but if the organiser wanted cockpits and other displays, he should make that known more widely, as word of mouth via the military vehicle boys only travels so far!

Forties events a very popular, but how many cockpits from that era are out there that can be travelled around?far more cockpits from the 50’s 60’s and 70’s but how many events cater for that era?

I have no doubt you are right but probably not in my lifetime!

There is an interesting parallel between this thread and the trends within the modern UK Armed Forces, where everybody and everything is becoming ‘joint’. Like it or not, one day – and within the lifetime of many forum members – the individual services will lose their separate identities and merge into one force (the naming of which could become a new thread!). Just think of the savings to be made by cutting out all those levels of top brass. It is therefore reasonable to expect that the various historical events that celebrate their achievements will inevitably follow the same path, sooner or later. Discuss……