Meko A-200 vs Formidable

They were never really full combat units, training only. And swept under the rug.

Germany named its only “people” class 20 years after their death after three people who died during WW2 (Lütjens, Mölders, Rommel).

Due to the … controversy of the name choice, every single German ship since then is named geographically. States, cities, towns for ships and larger boats, rivers and mountain ranges for supply ships, animals for smaller boats. And even that still incites people, considering Germans tend to think “regional”. Along the lines of “every federal state has to have one or two ships”. Iirc there’s only state without a ship ever named after it or a feature in it (Saarland).

This is not right, what´s about this frigates under german flag (Hunt- und Black-Swan-Class):

F 212 Gneisenau (ex-HMS Oakley L98/F168) 1958 – 1966
F 213 Scharnhorst (ex-HMS Mermaid U30/F30) 1959 – 1968
F 214 Hipper (ex-HMS Actaeon U07/F07) 1959 – 1964
F 215 Graf Spee (ex-HMS Flamingo U03/F03) 1959 – 1964
F 216 Scheer (ex-HMS Hart U58/F58) 1959 – 1967
F 217 Raule (ex-HMS Albrighton L12/F112) 1959 – 1967
F 218 Brommy(ex-HMS Eggesford L15/F15) 1959 – 1965

Germany named its only “people” class 20 years after their death after three people who died during WW2 (Lütjens, Mölders, Rommel).

Due to the … controversy of the name choice, every single German ship since then is named geographically. States, cities, towns for ships and larger boats, rivers and mountain ranges for supply ships, animals for smaller boats. And even that still incites people, considering Germans tend to think “regional”. Along the lines of “every federal state has to have one or two ships”. Iirc there’s only state without a ship ever named after it or a feature in it (Saarland).

I love the naming of the formidable class, it gets my vote just for that 🙂

I hate naming ships after people.

I don’t mind naming ships after people, once they’re dead. But only the right people. Hood, Anson, Rodney, Nelson, Blake, Ruyter, Tromp, Willemoes, Somerville, Cunningham etc. are fine: Vinson, Stennis, Reagan, Bush etc. annoy me.

BTW, the Valour class ships are named after South African battles or (in one case) major military events. One is named for a Boer victory over the British army.

I love the naming of the formidable class, it gets my vote just for that 🙂

I hate naming ships after people.

i can’t believe that the hangar of the valours can accommodate two lynx. i think the lynx has a footprint of nearly 11 x 3m.

are there any drawings or pictures showing this dual heli setup?

I don’t have anything with me right now, but I’ll see what I can dig up at home, if anything. I do know that the official South African Navy site mentions this fact as well. Off the top of my head, the Valour Class hangar door is at least 4 meters wide. The hangar itself is wider than the door, but by how much I’m not sure of off the top of my head. Having been in the hangar, I can say that it is quite long.

i can’t believe that the hangar of the valours can accommodate two lynx. i think the lynx has a footprint of nearly 11 x 3m.

are there any drawings or pictures showing this dual heli setup?

The Valour Class has a lot of potential stretch.

In basic terms, there is still space to increase the VLS Umkhonto IR SAM from the current complement of 16 to the designed 32 complement. This is notwithstanding the fact that the current Umkhonto IR SAM may well be complemented or replaced by the heavier, longer ranged Umkhonto Radar SAM.

The 76mm was an expedient solution lifted from the Warrior Class (ex-President Class) strike craft. The intention always was and still is to replace it with a heavier weapon in the 100mm to 155mm class.

There is a programme to fit a locally designed remote fully automatic 12,7mm Rogue system to keep the immediate environment surrounding the vessel sanitized.

There is space in the design to incorporate land attack missiles in the future, which is currently not carried due to political considerations.

The Valour Class currently operate 1 lynx helicopter, whilst they are designed to carry and operate 2 Lynxes easily, or 1 lynx and 2 UAV’s, or single heavier vehicles such as the Oryx or Rooivalk.

I think the Valour class are an exceptional design, and that the SAN are only at the start of it’s developmental career. These vessels are designed to have a 40-odd year lifespan, and were designed from the outset with plenty of growth potential.

Lastly, the Valour Class have to operate in the Southern Ocean, with some of the roughest seas on the planet. They are exceptionally stable vessels, according to one of her captains I chat to every now and then. The Valour Class is almost 2 meters wider on a hull only 3 meters longer, for roughly the same displacement, with different superstructures. The ANZAC problems don’t apply here at all. They are basically very different designs.

For the ANZAC’s.

As I understand it, top weight problems (possibly due to the CEAFAR they are getting) prevent phalanx and the second 8 cell VLS from being fitted midships. Due to topweight issues the Harpoons were also fitted forward of the bridge (was something else planned for here?) rather then the planned position behind the bridge.

The ASW/GP version of MEKO A200 would already be enabled to carry ESSM, most likely with SEAPAR, typical fit would be at least two 8-cell VLS with 32 ESSM and 8 VL ASROC in that role.
Distribution of Mk41 on A200 is one 8-cell launcher in front of the superstructure, and a 32-cell block between the superstructures (8-cell block there on ASW variant, no VLS there on Valour).

The Valour class switches out the forward 8-cell Mk41 for four 8-cell Umkhonto VLS blocks in the same space, with only some of the 32 cells typically containing a launch container (usually 8 or 16).

Options stated for Meko A200 AAW were APAR/SMART-L (full suite, not a derival) or SPY-1F (not 1K).

Hi,

Two modern frigates of roughly the same size, are the Meko A 200 (Valour class), and the Formidable class frigates.

How do these ships compare when it comes to their basic design? I have heard that some older Meko based designs (Anzac?) had some issues with top weight — would this be the case with the newer Meko A-200?

The Valour is slightly bigger than the Formidable, still I was surprised to see the big difference in range (8000 nm vs 4200 nm), how come?

The Meko A-200 looks great, but has less punch than the Formidable. I wonder if it has any growth potential? Imagine this ship with SPY-1K, NMS instead of Exocet and 32 or even 64 EMMS instead of 16 Umkhonto…

On the range issue:

Factor 1: cruise speed difference
Formidable: 4,200nm at economical speed of 18kt
Valour: 8,000 nm at economical speed of 16 kt

Factor 2: difference diesels (Valour’s are of lesser power > lesser fuel consumption)
Formidable: Propulsion = CODAD
4x diesel engines MTU 20V 8000 M90, each rated at 8200 kW (CODAD
Valour: Propulsion = CODAG WARP
2x diesel engines, 5,920 kilowatts (7,940 hp) each, 2 shafts for cruise;
1x gas turbine, 20,000 kilowatts (27,000 hp)

Factor 3: different means of putting SHP to work propelling the ship (Valour more efficient?)
Formidable: the engines drive two shafts with constant pitch propellers.
Valour: the engines drive two shafts with controllable pitch propellers + 1x waterjet

Topweight issue with A-200? Only if the customer specifies (unreasonable) requirements that make it top heavy.

Punch difference? Define punch! The basic Meko A-200 AAW frigate design was to carry a similar radar set to Dutch LCF and German F-124 as well as 3x Mk41 (possibly even 5), which could make for 16 SM2 and 32 ESSM. You can imagine a GP or specialized ASW version easily (just replace the SM2 with some land attack cruise missile or some thing like VL ASROC).

“The Valour is slightly bigger than the Formidable, still I was surprised to see the big difference in range (8000 nm vs 4200 nm), how come? “

Im not exactly sure on the range issue but believe it to be a combination of these two factors:

The displacement difference is quite large actually:

3700FL vs 3200FL ie most of this diffrence is likely given over for fuel on the Valour.

In addition some of the discrepancy ii the range for the Valour is based on 16 knts and the Formidable on 18 knts plus they dont tell us on how many engines. That could be another BIG factor.

Thats off the top of my head IIl try to dig up more.

Also the Valour has a better length to beam ratio which normally increases endurance.

Presumably 32 Umkhonto weighs much less than 32 ESSM?

L

About 60% less. I don’t know how the launcher weight compares.

AFAIK, the Anzac top weight problem came from adding new equipment to a design which was already close to its limits. The Valour class seems to be safely within the hull limits – but might not be if you added SPY-1 & 64 ESSM.

Note I specified the SPY-1K (which is designed for a 2600 ton corvette).

64 ESSM was perhaps a bit too much — but 32 may be doable?

http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/stellent/groups/public/documents/legacy_site/cms01_048612.pdf

26-30 tons, 32 ESSM missiles included.

It seems the Valour class can take 32 Umkhonto:

Kamerman said the ship was designed to “take punishment” and was designed for inherent growth. It had spaces with all the necessary fittings for rapid fitting of additional capabilities without needing modification. This meant that the ship could increase its surface to air missile outfit from 16 to 32 launch cells in a few hours. It is expected that the class will be substantially upgraded over the ships’ 30-40 year life. Kamerman has said the ships had plenty of space to accommodate new equipment and weapons and was designed to easily allow the removal of outdated technology through easily accessible hatches

Presumably 32 Umkhonto weighs much less than 32 ESSM?

L

I would expect the greater range to be at least partly due to what you call “less punch”. Different circumstances, different design trade-offs. South Africa is less concerned about air threats (look at the neighbours), & has a lot more open ocean to patrol.

AFAIK, the Anzac top weight problem came from adding new equipment to a design which was already close to its limits. The Valour class seems to be safely within the hull limits – but might not be if you added SPY-1 & 64 ESSM.