Merged thread – Unelectable Corbyn and Let's not bomb ISIS

All my adult life I have experienced right wing governments doing what right wing governments do (sharing out the spoils, kicking the poor and needy, cutting spending where it would help the majority, and making the rich richer).

But what you actually mean is ‘right wing governments’ not sharing out as much of the ‘spoils’ with the poor and needy as you would wish them to, not redistributing more wealth to the poor and needy than they already do, spending more than they already do helping the majority…

…as for ‘making the rich richer’ your brand of ‘non-right wing government’ presumably doesn’t stop at Calais?

The truth of the matter is that in all United Kingdom governments over the last forty years only the top 40% of taxpayers have made a net contribution to the state, the rest of the population (and not just the taxpayers!) have been completely subsidised by this 40% and have made no net contribution whatsoever!

As for the ‘rich’ if you are earning the average United Kingdom wage (about £25,000) that would put you in the top 1% of earners on the planet; even on ‘minimum wage’ you’d probably be in the top 5% of earners on the planet. I congratulate your stance that you will be willing to pay (much) higher taxes to support those less wealthy than yourself!

Or, like most people, are your ideas of ‘equality’ only directed at those with more money than you?

And everything has to be majorly profitable: no longer can the country speculate to accumulate…

This is the wrong language to be using when looking at government finances; governments cannot ‘speculate’ in the same way that you or I could. All government spending is effectively ‘loss making’ but I’d agree that there are better and worse ways of spending that money…

…and as for ‘accumulating’, what successive governments have accumulated is a mountain of debt!

No government, no matter how ‘non-right wing’, ‘socialist’ or just ‘nice’ can ignore that debt indefinitely; sooner or later (later or ‘never’ with most governments!) that debt will have to be paid (unless you are ‘left-wing’ Greece) and a first stage of paying-off that debt is to spend less than the government earns…

…and that means ‘cuts’!

Yes, there are different ways of making these cuts, but cuts there will have to be; even Jeremy Corbyn has said (I believe) that the deficit will have to be reduced so Jeremy Corbyn will be making ‘cuts’ too.

…in the same way that fans will insist that the wrong team won at football, rugby, cricket, etc?

No, because in that analogy the views of the fans would mean that the ‘wrong’ team would not win! 😉

Either way the combination of “socialism” and nationalism from the SNP will bring Scotland to its knees, whereas Corbyn’s brand of socialism is unlikely to get past the starting blocks, fortunately.;)

Ah but there is socialist and ‘socialist’ – I tend to use either term to describe Labour/the left – the SNP are most definitely ‘socialist’ LOL
Where I live – the hard working and highly respected local Labour MP has been replaced by an SNP MP who has been in 2 other parties before ; ) and prob will not be seen very often in the toon !

Earlier posts seem to be confusing being “left” with being “socialist”……….

Where did Jeremy Corbyn go to school? Why does it matter where anybody went to school…

If you want to get into politics there are certain schools where it almost appears that an education will lead to a career in politics. Can’t be bothered to search for it at the moment but in the run up to the election there was some story which insisted that an Etonian education was ‘required’ for a top flight political career.
I agree, it shouldn’t matter where anyone went to school – as long as they were educated, of course – but the political backers do care, it seems, and certain public schools tick their boxes.

…unless you’re condoning some sort of class prejudice…..and I know you wouldn’t do that! 😉

No! No no nonononono, no.
All my adult life I have experienced right wing governments doing what right wing governments do (sharing out the spoils, kicking the poor and needy, cutting spending where it would help the majority, and making the rich richer).
A recent development has been the rise in the career politician, one who has had little to no work experience outside of politics, in to which they usually come straight after a privileged education and then a top university, followed by a little job in law or the city (seemingly to make contacts whilst keeping busy outside of their political career). They appear to have no idea about how the majority of the population live – witness that hoary old cliche the price of milk test, for example – yet make decisions about how much a single man or a family can live on for a week whilst bemoaning the cost of the benefits system which is needed to top up working income and help the poorly paid to survive, even as their friends and backers (big business) complain that the minimum wage increases are not good for business.

And everything has to be majorly profitable: no longer can the country speculate to accumulate.
You hear little except of downsizing of the military, cuts to spending on the police and NHS (training doctors and nurses is expensive and they end up heavily in debt – so we ‘steal’ them from abroad instead), borough and county councils withdrawing spending on vote-winning but expensive/unprofitable policies. They need to save money, yet these are the things that other nations used to envy us for and we moan about because they are just not as good as they were, for example, twenty years ago, and twenty years before that, or in our youth, etc.
Tell me, honestly, do you really think we need fewer bobbies on the beat now?
Locally we have potholes in nearly every road (did you know that relatively few councils now have the machinery to re-tarmac roads or pavements? They have to hire the vehicles and men to do it at relatively vast expenditure and despite future planning for it usually find they no longer have the budget to do all that was planned for when the budget was allocated. Even getting a spadeful for a simple pothole is going beyond the budget in some places), over grown hedges that intrude into or over footpaths and roads, roadsigns that cannot be read because they are old and faded (cheap does not mean something will last – I have seen some signs that were redone in time for the Olympics, yet are now as faded as the one they replaced) or have long been broken and not yet been replaced. Sometimes it feels like WWII with all the signs taken down to fool invaders.

Britain is not a third world country, but it seems the political desire is there to try and turn it into one.

Actually my comments weren’t directed at socialism itself (whatever that is in 2015 Britain); more the idea that anybody can say, in a democracy, that we’ve voted in the ‘wrong’ government? Yes, you may not agree with the way the vote went but is it not extremely arrogant, in a democracy, to even suggest that the elected government is the ‘wrong’ choice?

…in the same way that fans will insist that the wrong team won at football, rugby, cricket, etc?

Googling ‘corbyn unelectable’ seems to indicate that it’s the press who are using it, when paraphrasing or interpreting his opponents.

And yet the polls said he was ahead – so the voters they asked disagreed with the papers.

Nothing new there…

Bit of a problem for anyone thinking of espousing non-tory views, that. If you’re less well-off you’re indulging in ‘the politics of envy’, and if you have any more you’re a ‘Champagne Socialist’. I don’t know about unelectable, but it certainly seems you can”t win.. 🙂

I doubt that is any worse than Tory voters being referred to as nasty, and even evil. In the wake of the humiliating GE defeat, I saw some truly nasty rhetoric coming from Labour supporters.

I would vote for Boris. Dont forget London did and there is a more diverse mob there than anywhere! Perhaps they just did not like lefty Livingstone.

Sorry Baz, our posts crossed.

I take your point!

Hey a Turkey voting for christmas ; )

Prob better voting tory than for a ‘champagne socialist’ young beermat –

rgds baz

Bit of a problem for anyone thinking of espousing non-tory views, that. If you’re less well-off you’re indulging in ‘the politics of envy’, and if you have any more you’re a ‘Champagne Socialist’. I don’t know about unelectable, but it certainly seems you can”t win.. 🙂

Hi Beermat -The SNP are like a bunch of 70’s trade unionists – they haven’t a clue – I have lived through a few ‘socialist’ governments and they all seem to gravitate the same way,like a young man who thinks he can spend spend spend while there are cheques in his cheque book – an old fashioned analogy but hopefully you will get my drift.

rgds baz

Frankly I hope the Tories do put Boris up front, that will immediately make Labour very much the first choice for many “floating” voters.

He is very popular with younger people, and I suspect poses a danger to Labour in that regard. Next to Boris, Corbyn looks and sounds like any other stereotypical Westminster politician. Of course, it is all for show. Underneath Boris is every bit as ruthless as any other front bench politician. He has mastered his public persona.

I think it’s more that the SNP don’t feel any need to follow the orthodoxy of the increasingly neo-liberal Conservative party when it comes to spending. It doesn’t necessarily make their philosophy ‘Left’. There has been an assumption, encouraged by the UK media, that somehow ‘Austerity’ is a Conservative value, rather than a way of clawing back the money lost by the wealthy by laying the burden on the rest of us. Not subscribing 100% to this approach doesn’t make one Karl Marx. And yes, Blair and Brown overspent. Not because they were left wing (and they weren’t), but because they were a bit crap. Unfortunately it has now stuck in the public mind that this was because they were ‘Left’.

Careful Silver Fox, you are showing the same prejudice towards Boris, as many on the opposite side are to JC. i am always amused that so many believe the real Boris is the bumbling fool he often portrays. Don’t underestimate either of them..

I agree with Silver fox, in my experience Boris’ support even with tories that I know is inversely proportional to the distance voters are from London. Far too London/homecounties centric

That makes the assumption that the SNP is a truly socialist party. I am not convinced. Besides which it is conflated with a strong element of nationalism, so I don’t accept that any lessons are to be drawn from what happens in Scotland in the way you suggest.

Oh they are truly left wing – and it is virtually a one party state – like traditional ‘socialists’ they think they can just keep spending – also they want to control every little part of the poor old jockaneses life.
A new opposition party is definitely required north of the border !

Careful Silver Fox, you are showing the same prejudice towards Boris, as many on the opposite side are to JC. i am always amused that so many believe the real Boris is the bumbling fool he often portrays. Don’t underestimate either of them..

I don’t think he is a bumbling fool, he is very good at hiding his true persona behind the clowns mask, I believe that he is even more rabid than Cameron or Osborne and that is saying plenty, but again certainly in the North, I believe he will not attract the support that he seems to get in London.

Careful Silver Fox, you are showing the same prejudice towards Boris, as many on the opposite side are to JC. i am always amused that so many believe the real Boris is the bumbling fool he often portrays. Don’t underestimate either of them..

Surely that will depend considerably on which Labour Party turns up for the 2020 election.

I find it unlikely that Labour will win, regardless of who they choose. Given that the Tories have such an advantage over Labour, and Scotland is now effectively lost to countrywide parties, we will most likely be looking at a Tory government of some kind.

I’m with Moggy, while Tory voters may consider Osbourne to be good/great for the economy, I think he suffers from a little of the awkwardness that destroyed Miliband. Boris is a sure fire vote winner for them, and his joyful façade combined with his razor sharp wit would make Corbyn look like a dinosaur in parliament.

Frankly I hope the Tories do put Boris up front, that will immediately make Labour very much the first choice for many “floating” voters.

That makes the assumption that the SNP is a truly socialist party. I am not convinced. Besides which it is conflated with a strong element of nationalism, so I don’t accept that any lessons are to be drawn from what happens in Scotland in the way you suggest.