Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

RE: For all who are interested

Sure as the nose is on my face, you can’t mistake the Emil (Sorry that was the name, I just couldn’t remember), it had a long squareish nose (as opposed to the nice round one of the Gustav) and the part that tiped me off was the tail struts (Gustavs never had them)

I’ll try and find out more and see if I can get a pic or ten

Per Ardua Ad Astra!

RE: For all who are interested

An ‘Ernist’??If you mean a Bf109E,then the word you’ll be looking for is Emil 🙂 (The Germans applied nicknames to particular sub types of aircraft eg D=Dora,E=Emil,F=Friedrich,G=Gustav etc etc)
Sorry,don’t mean to be a nitpicker!
Ps Are you sure it was an E model?I’ve heard of a G being rebuilt in Aus,but not an E.

For all who are interested

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-01-02 AT 06:18 PM (GMT)]There is an Ernest being repaired to flying status at the museum “Fighter World” at RAAF Williamtown I’ve seen it sitting outside in company with a Spitfire 1a. This was about four years ago and it was being done in 1940 France colours of two tone green and black underside. I remember a white number on the side but I can’t remember what number it was 🙁

Looks like I’ll have to go and visit my father again right? Who knows I might be able to get a play with it 😛

Also I remember seeing an ME-108 being reastored to flying condition at Bankstown Airport, at the time it was the only one being restored to flying status in the world! I’ll chase this up as well as any other goodies I can find, ok? Just remind me now and then by email, my memory is shot these days!

Eye_Products_International@yahoo.de

Per Ardua Ad Astra!

RE: Message for sadtwat

Firstly, Ashley , yes that is one of my pictures.
But more importantly, I am feeling slightly guilty having posted comments about blame and conspiracy. But as i stated in a later posting these were not my words, i was merely trying to put over some of the comments which were being made after the event. I am not saying i agree with them, merely that theories were being banded around.
We all know that mistakes were made and that has been admitted and i have no doubts about AVM John Allisons ability as a pilot.
I suppose if you put yourself on the fence then you are there to be shot at, so please don,t blame me guys i was just trying to be the messenger.

Phil

RE: Message for sadtwat

Adding my thanks to Mick’s…like I said in an earlier post the conspiracy theories hold no weight with me…and as for mistakes…I can think of a few pilots who are no longer with us and who are much missed…

RE: Message for sadtwat

Thanks for the clarification Philip on the sad demise of Black 6, perhaps the idiots with their libelous “Roswell” conspiracy theories will now shut up.

Next they’ll be telling us that the Yanks didn’t actually go to the moon after all, and just filmed it all in Hollywood………….

TaTa
Mick

RE: Message for sadtwat

This is my first posting on this forum and I only joined to comment on this particular thread.

I spent some time with the ‘Black 6’ crew on the day of crash and I would like to add my comments to some of those that have been posted.

In one post someone heard from “someone in the know” that Charlie Brown was due to fly Black 6 that day…. Before I go on here I would like to add that the 3 main pilots of Black 6, John Alison, Charlie Brown and Dave Southwood planned to have one last Display flight in Black 6. Charlie had his last flight on the Press day at Duxford. Black 6 was due to fly twice at the show. Dave was to display early on in the show and John due to do the last display closing the show.

What I have just stated obviously rules out the statement claiming that Charlie was due to fly Black 6 that day. Any way Charlie would have to be in two places at once if he were flying Black 6 because at the time of the accident he was flying along side Black 6 in the Historic Aircraft Collection’s Mk IX Spitfire TE566. (This was by far the best Dog Fight display that these two aircraft ever did)

As Charlie was flying the Spitfire in this routine, I cannot see how John pulled rank on Charlie for this flight.

As I stated earlier, Dave was due to do the first flight of the day, but as stated in an earlier post, the wind was out of limits for the aircraft. It was decided to cancel this flight and to try again later on. It was decided that the aircraft could take off in these conditions, but a landing would be out of the question. A decision was made to therefore take off from Duxford, fly the display routine and take the aircraft to Cambridge where the grass runway was into wind. It was therefore decided that as John was the Chief Pilot, he should display the aircraft and Dave would then at a later date pick Black 6 up from Cambridge therefore having his last flight in the aircraft.

As for the conspiracy theory going on here, I have no knowledge of this, but if anyone thinks that John did what he did on purpose is greatly mistaken. I doubt anyone in the warbird industry would damage an aircraft in such a way to ground it. Just because he was a high ranking officer in the RAF, it does not make him a bad pilot…. In my opinion he is one of the best and safest pair of hands in this industry and if I were a collector I would let him fly anything I owned. I’m sure that John spent a lot of time campaigning, as did a lot of people for Black 6’s cause. He must have been in a very awkward position. He was the chief pilot and at the time an Air Chief Marshall. He may have been able to use his rank in some way to sway who ever made the final decision to ground the aircraft but that would have been unethical.

John made a mistake and he admits that. How many people who post to or read this forum have made mistakes and not admitted to them?

Everyone makes mistakes…. Some people do not live to tell the tale…. We should be grateful that John and Black 6 are still here for us to see. The accident happened and yes it was a very sad day, but that could have so easily happened to any pilot in any aircraft. I am sure that if it had not been such a high profile aircraft and such a high profile pilot this accident would have slowly faded into the sands of time.

Let’s all hope that there is another Messerschmitt 109 gracing the skies again over Duxford soon (and I hope I have the pleasure of seeing John, Charlie and Dave displaying it for us)

Philip Bradle.

RE: Message for sadtwat

And Philo…is that one of your pics? It’s a lovely shot of Black 6 🙂

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

I certainly don’t think that Black 6 was crashed deliberately…while the accident was Allison’s fault, he should be commended for the way he handled the aircraft when he realised disaster was iminent…

I very much wish that Black 6 was not going to Hendon having watched her being restored to her former albeit now static glory here at Duxford but then I wish for a lot of things…:)

RE: Message for sadtwat

Are you the same fool that came onto the old Warbirds Worldwide forum and stated that in your opinion AVM John Alison purposely crashed or damaged Black 6 on the orders of the MOD.
If you are not, then you sound very much like him.
You ought to be very careful making accusations like that of people, they might just take you seriously and pull your ass through the courts for it.

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-01-02 AT 07:42 PM (GMT)]Just a point about the pilot refusing to be cut out. The fuel leaking from the aircraft and covering the area around the aircraft may have had something to do with that as well! There was too much risk of sparking igniteing the fuel.

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

I was chatting to a chap on a train from Berlin, and i was slating AVM Allison. Turns out Allison was this chaps former C/O!

I dont understand the logic of Black 6 going to Hendon, having no relevance to the collections there. Why not Cosford with the other captured stuff?

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

I’m afraid that it was pilot error ~sad smile~…but then we all make mistakes…

And yes, Black 6 will be going to Hendon shortly, but I do not have a date…

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

Just to say the points in my previous mail are not my own, i was merely relaying some of the things that were being said at the time.
I was not there on the day, but did have a running commentary as it happened as a very good friend was at the M11 end talking to me on his mobile at the time, ironically gloating at the fact that i was at home unable to go!.
That same friend knew people in the Black 6 team and assisted with photos in the investigation, so the feedback he was getting may have been some unfound bitterness from people involved at the site of their pride and joy in a damaged state.

Attachments:

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

I’m glad to say that I wasn’t present on that day,but I still got the gut wrenching sensation watching the video clips on the news that evening.I would agree that the pilot’s airmanship was first class after the point where he diagnosed engine seizure.He did everything correctly in terms of getting the aircraft down in double quick time, but the stiff tailwind was no help when it came to slowing down.I agree that he did remarkably well to ‘hop’ the M11.
As for the field beyond,about half of it WAS kept unused as an overrun area,but on the day it turned out to just not be enough by a matter of a few yards.Black 6 was only doing something in the region of 20mph when she ran into the soft stuff,so heavan knows what might have happened if this overrun area hadn’t existed at all.I’m unsure as to whether this overrun area has been extended since.
As for the intentional engine damage theory,we can take that with a pinch of salt.As it is the engine is in working condition now,although I don’t think it has been run since that fateful day. The AAIB investigators found absolutelly no damage to the engine,so it could be run tomorrow if the decision was taken!
As for the MOD’s intention not to fly her again,it’s worth remembering that they conviened a meeting to discuss her future even AFTER the accident had occurred,so I don’t think anyone at the MOD was too keen to see her grounded.
Finally,I’ve heard that Charlie Brown was otherwise engaged on operational matters on the day of the display,so AVM Allison was called up at rather short notice,hence the fact that he hadn’t flown a mid-week practice session.It all goes to show how a whole bunch of small inconveniences can have far larger consequences.

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

I remember the day only too well – for some reason I had wandered down to the M11 end of the crowdline, on the way back to the car (it was parked behind the Superhangar in the days when traffic control didn’t direct southbound traffic onto the Officers Mess parking areas) and was stood watching the last flight of Black 6 with a feeling of real anger and disappointment. Anger at the fact that the MOD was grounding a unique aircraft which had been rescued by the sheer stubborness and graft of Russ and the Black 6 team, and disappointment that it’s superb engine growl would never be heard again.

I watched as Black 6 took off, on what was a very windy day and I think about on the limits of anything flying that day. I also watched in a heightening state of concern as an unusual puff of smoke was spotted coming from the exhausts followed by a short and fast recovery onto the remaining runway. It was obvious something was wrong and the pilot was flying by the seat of his flightsuit and his speed was way too high to stop in the runway length left to him. The feeling of horror was all around me as I’m sure everyone thought “Oh sh*t, the M11……..”
In what I still consider to be an piece of great flying he lifted off again and hopped the M11, only to come to grief in the fresh furrows of that field.
A feeling of relief that perhaps it’s not that bad was crushed as news came that the aircraft was upside down with the pilot trapped. It later emerged he refused to be cut out to save anymore damage to the aircraft.
I’ve read the accident report and with hindsight perhaps things should have been done differently, but accidents happen and but for the pilots decisionmaking, Black 6 may have been spread all over four lanes of the M11.
Black 6 was going to be grounded after that flight. That was the only bad decision in my books. It is a unique aircraft, and should be flown and cared for.
Theories about deliberately damaging the aircraft are X-File fodder.
Hopefully, one day soon, the sound of a DB605 will echo around Duxford again.

I think a lesson from this is that the field on the otherside of the M11 needs to be reserved for any further emergencies such as this. If it has already been so designated, then well done.
The M11 should never have been allowed to disect the runway like it did. For the sake of a few hundred yards of motorway it could easily have skirted the end of the original airfield. But then Duxford wasn’t what it is today. Europe’s No.1 flying museum.

Bob

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

Valid points Ant, and perhaps i was a tad harsh on AVM Sir Allison.
But those in the know at the time were saying that Charlie Brown was due to take the flight and was outranked by AVM Allison.
Charlie Brown of course having far more and recent experience on Black 6.
There was also a conspiracy theory around at the time.Thus that the intention was to ‘damage’ Black 6’s DB605 ‘safely’ during the last display so as she was no longer flyable anyway.The MOD would then say that although they may have considered an extension of her display life the unfortunate mechanical damage precluded this.
AVM Sir John Allison is now flying some of the Shuttleworth collection, lets hope that he is able to read much older instruments.

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

I think we have to give the Black 6’s accident pilot a bit of sympathy rather than cynicism.It should be remembered that the oil cooler shutter control on a 109 is down beside the pilot’s right knee,so is not particularly prominant.This lever was only a little way out of the ‘Automatic’ setting,but just enough to cause problems.I think that is stinking bad luck rather than bad piloting.
You could also criticise his handling of the situation,ie the belief that the engine was about to sieze.He mis-interprated the instrument readings and also failed to check other instruments which may have helped him diagnose the problem,but this to my mind is down to the pilot’s currency on type rather than his general abilities.If I remember correctly,he hadn’t flown the aircraft since the previous March (the accident being in October)and even then it was a short check flight rather than a flying display,his last previous display in the aircraft having been over a year before the accident.To add to this,the instrumentation was annotated in German,and the instruments gave readings of various values eg Metres of altitude instead of Feet etc,making the reading of the instruments difficult under such stressful conditions.
It is interesting to think that the accident would probably never have occurred had it not been scheduled to be Black 6’s last display.The winds were strong and conditions otherwise were not great.On any other day,they might not have flown her at all,but the fact that this was the last chance to display her gave added incentive to her taking part in the display.
Another piece of misfortune was that the owner of the land on the other side of the motorway had decided to start plowing his field on the Thursday before the accident.The area that Black 6 bogged down and flipped over in had been solid ground not much more than 48hrs beforehand!
To my mind,all this makes the Black 6 accident a terribly unlucky occurance,rather than it being down to poor airmanship.

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

True, true, but that was always the MOD’s intention.
However you have to wonder what their decision would have been had Black 6 not had such an ‘unfortunate’ accident.It was interesting that the report just quietly slipped into the archives, nothing to do with one of the ministry’s most senior chaps being the pilot(who just happened to select the wrong radiator setting) by any chance.
Oh synical me !!

Phil

RE: Message for Mr. Russ Snadden

it’s awful that black 6 will just sit quiet in Hendon-what a waste!