MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

Not everyone in Israel support their hardline govt.policies.Even some of the troops felt that most of the so call anti terrorist ops were not justified. One soldier said that he do not know what is the purpose of their mission live on Israeli TV while they were conducting house to house search in Ramallah.Sharon ordered tanks to enter few more Palestinian town early today after declared that Arafat is the enemy/head of terrorist.Surely more bloods will be shed today,and the US is not doing enough.Some senior policies maker lashed out at the Bush adm.for being inactive towards the Mideast crisis,and these guys are American.Maybe,just maybe both Arafat/Sharon should be replaced in order to get the two side on the table again.Forget about Iraq,US wont be able to topple Saddam within this short period of time.If US have the guts to use N bomb against Iraq,Iran,China and even Russia,why shouldnt Iraq be allowed to own some crude N bomb. Settle Mideast crisis and there is no reason for anybody to attack the US.

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

Two things about the ambulance remark. First, Palestinians have used ambulances in their ‘war’ against Israel. Ambualnces have carried suicide bomber past checkpoints. The first female suicide bomber used an ambulance to get past the checkpoints. And just a few days ago an ambualnce was forced to stop at a checkpoint. Inside a suicide bomber was discovered. Inside the ambulance were also a child and a female.

Second, Palestinians, from their moral highground have today targetted Israeli ambulance personnel in a suicide bombing in Efrat. This ofcourse wasn’t the first time rescue workers were targeted, in numerous suicide bombings there was a second bomber or bomb, which was meant to go off as soon as people arrived at the scene to help the wounded. But this time, the personnel itself was a primary target. It is yet another sad day in Israel now.

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

I wasn’t making any point about IQ tests other than an exasperated one; it takes two to tango and I do not understand taking one side over the other.

Sure, a Palestinian state has been offered before – George Dubya even offered it again, post 9/11.

But the point is that the Palestinians do not just want the “cast offs” that Israel is willing to give up. They want the lot. The plan by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia at the moment is for Israel to return all the “recently” occupied lands in exchange for peace. Who knows if this will work.

Palestinians want the land; so do Israelis.

Who should have it??

My answer is – neither and both. Israel deserves it no more than the Palestinians do and the status quo is therefore incorrect.

As has been said, people far more intelligent and learned than I have failed to solve this problem. But the answer might lie in power sharing – a state run for all the peoples of the area, by all the peoples of the area. Maybe under a UN mandate.

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

yes indeed , very brutal , those murderer Palestenians can’t stop killing the peace loving Israelies who are trying to make peace with them through excutions and Tank attacks .
those savage Palestenians can’t understand the real meaning of peace , they can’t get the way peace should be made , they don’t understand that they should stand in lines in a very peaceful manner waiting for the peace loving Israelies to come and use them as shhoting targets to train for their hunting trips in the ountains of the land they occupied 52 years ago .
those Palestenian ediots don’t understand that they are disturbing Mr. George W. Bush by not trying to stop violance 100% while the Israelies are trying so hard to use their Merkavas to make peace , how stupid can one nation be ?
the Palestenians can’t understand that the Israeli army is destroying their Ambulance cars because they could harbour terrorists , they don’t understand that the IDF soldiers needed the 7 Ambulance cars they stole this morning from Ram Allah Hospital for vital operations to secure peace againist the terrorists .
the Palestenians are so stupid that they don’t understand why would the IDF KIDDNAP a 70 years old woman whos a mother of one of their POLITICAL leaders and try to force him to surrender by this kind of activity , well of course it is to secure peace , because PEACE IS THE SOLUTION .
of course peace here is the same one as in REST IN PEACE , what else could it be ?.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-03-02 AT 02:18 PM (GMT)]Are you suggesting that my or Skythe’s IQ is lower than average, or lower than yours, mongu?

Really, before stating things, you should know more facts. Arafat had the opportunity in Camp David to get a state for the Palestinians. He turned down the proposal, and instead, upon his return, or maybe even before, ordered the preparation of a conflict against the Palestinians. This in fact has been confirmed by a PLO official in Lebanon. He not only let terrorism reign in the good years of Oslo, he in fact supported it. This is unacceptable, and I think he made a big mistake. The Palestinian now will have to wait at least another generation before they will have another opportunity to get a state of their own.

Kev wrote: “If Israel stopped retaliating for one month and the Palestinians continued their attacks they would receive overwhelming world wide support.”

This has already been tried, remember the Dolfinarium attack last year? Sharon didn’t respond for a month to Palestinian attacks, the world was all ‘behind’ Israel. Did it stop the bombing? No, Israelis were still getting killed. Then ofcourse Israel had to retaliate, after yet another suicide bombing. What happened to world support? Arafat was once again the ‘victim’, crying like a baby about the cruel Israelis killing terrorists.

“Similarly, if the Palestinians stopped their attacks for the same period of time, ignoring whatever they see as provocation from Israel, they too would receive extra support.”

Wrong again, the Palestinians already have wordl support, for a number of reasons. The Europeans like cheap oil, and love to sell weapons to Arab countries. Furthermore, the Palestinians are trying to make it look like a fight of David against Goliath. They would even kill their won children if that would lead to world support. It’s amazing how, after each suicide bombing, Israel is being comdemned by virtually the entire world, with the notable exception of the US.

Tomel, fighting poverty has nothing to do with the fight against terrorism. Terrosims and poverty are not connected. The Palestinians have a higher standard of living than most people in the Arab states, yet those people in Arab states don’t execute acts of terrorism. The 9/11 highjackers all came from the welthier Arab families, Osama is a millionaire. Study has shown that most Palestinian suicide bombers come from families who have a good income (by comparison of course). That doesn’t mean however that I don’t think poverty should be fought.

Now, as I explained earlier, the Palestinians could have gotten a state by peacefull means. Instead, they chose to fight. Why? Because their goal is the destruction of Israel, not a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. IMO, they’re not defending themselves, but are attacking Israel. It’s Israel which has a right to defend istelf.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

I agree.We need to fight poverty globally.Personally i think the west(rich ones)failed to play a major roles in this arena.No doubt that it wont guarantee total peace on earth, still it will ease up certain tension.If the US/EURO could spend trillions of $ on defence there is no reason at all not being able to help out a fellow men.I Mean really help them to get back on their feet again.Clear all the bad debt and provide tech and financial asst.Try to wins heart and minds of the people,cause it sure works here in Malaysia.We managed to forced the commies terrorist to lay down their weapons after almost 40 yrs of fighting.There is no point dropping food to the hungry peoples if at the same time you still bomb their land till kingdom come.All this shall breed a new face of terror to the oppressor.As for the Palestinians,they have the right to defend themselves.And of course a good offense is the best defense.They have no choice but to resort to suicide bombing. A few AK 47/RPG wont be able to defeat Merkava 3/F16.How would you feel if your very own homeland are under siege and most of the people you loved is either dead,in jail or missing?Try to put yourself in their shoes.At the moment talks wont do much good . Send in UN peacekeepers ASAP.The US should not veto. decision made by the UN against the Israeli.It not only for the Palestinians but also for the US interest.A stable Mideast means there is one less reasons for the so call muslims terrorist to act against the US.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

What’s an IQ test?

Seriously, as in all confrontations like the Israeli/Palestinian or the one in Northern Ireland, both sides have what they believe to be legitimate claims. The problem is that with the constant tit-for-tat cycle of attack and retaliation, one side is going to have to stop and make a serious commitment to a solution. A line needs to be drawn under everything that has gone before, and needs to be adhered to whatever the provocation. If Israel stopped retaliating for one month and the Palestinians continued their attacks they would receive overwhelming world wide support. Similarly, if the Palestinians stopped their attacks for the same period of time, ignoring whatever they see as provocation from Israel, they too would receive extra support. The trick lies in getting both sides to to agree to such a process at the same time.

Unravelling this situation has occupied politicians, armies, peacemakers and impassioned peoples for over 50 years, it is difficult to imagine who would take the boldest step of committing to a sustainable peace.

regards

kev35

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

Your point about the administration of Palestine is accepted. However, I feel that is going down a needlessly legalistic avenue of debate. The British were the effective rulers of that territority – under whose authority is really a side issue.

Arafat indeed has been guilty of failing to restrain certain Palestinian elements. However, the cold reality is that religous fervour is not restricted to a particular side in this conflict. To draw on the IRA comparison made earlier: both Republican and Loyalist terrorists have committed atrocities – I lump them in the same category, personally.

So given that we have two points of view and that both sides have a legitimate claim to be heard; why should the “West” listen to one side and damn the other side??

Do any readers of this post personally think that one side is “right” and the other is “wrong”. If so, I’d be interested in seeing them sit an IQ test!

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

Another bomber!

Read this.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&u=/nm/20020330/wl_n…

How on earth are the Israelis able to live normal lives, let alone the Palestinians?

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 10:26 PM (GMT)]In order to discuss such subjects in a serious manner, one has to know what he’s talking about.

Palestine was never a British colony, it was under a mandate granted to Britain by the United Nations. Nor were Palestinians ever British subjects. The British cared for no one but themselves, and their opposition to Jewish aspirations had nothing to do with Palestinian rights. After all, only a decade before they had practically wiped several Palestinian villages off the map in their attempts to quell the Great Revolt of 1936-1939.

As for the characteristics of Israeli leaders, those are debatble, but rather insignificant right now. It is Israel who allowed Yasser Araft back to the territories, it is Israel that withdrew from Palestinian cities, it is Israel who allowed him to form his security services, with over 40,000 men at his disposal, it is Israel which supplied him with weapons and ammunition, and it is Israel which fulfilled its commitments in a process that would have led to the formation of an independant Palestinian state. All he had to, AS HE HAD COMMITED TO DO BY THE AGREEMENTS HE HAD SIGNED HIMSELF, was to control violent elements in the Palestinian Authority and to stop attacks on Israelis. Not only did he fail to follow on his commitments, he had in fact fostered, supported and directed them in their campaign of terrorism against Israel. Where do you even begin to compare this to the situation in Palestine during the 1940s? I somehow don’t recall the British doing anything to adress Jewish aspirations.

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

How about considering the fact that the current and former leaders of Israel are themselves terrorists?

Post WW2, the land known as Israel was a British colony. Jewish terrorists wanting their “Israel” conducted a horrific campaign against British troops – kidnap, torture, murder.

It seems that after so much time has elapsed, their actions are now legitimised.

It is worth remembering why Britian was so against granting the Jewish state: the Palestinians were British subjects and it was considered that their rights had equal importance to the Jews wanting to form Israel.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

I think the wrong question is being asked here. The question should be: what kind of people send 16 year old girls on suicide missions? THAT is the question.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

“A 16 year old girl, well that only proves that the
terrorists aren’t bearded Arabs who walk with a cane, but
normal people, desperate civilians. What kind of normal
16-year old girl would join a terrorist group?”

Morpheus, you appear to be contradicting yourself in the above statement. You suggest a 16 year old female suicide bomber proves Palestinian terrorists/freedom fighters (take your pick) are normal, but then you ask what kind of normal 16 year old would join a terrorist group. Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to ruin your argument.

South Africa has had it’s own problems with terrorism and poverty. In the 1970’s, South Africa’s war on poverty appeared to be directly aimed at ensuring that black South Africans were never allowed to integrate into the utopian society the majority of people would aspire to. Apartheid ensured that the white policeman with a rifle would always be that much more ‘equal’ than a poor black youth from soweto armed only with a rock.

Today’s news suggests that the U.S were prepared to support a motion roundly condemning both the Palestinians and the Israeli’s. This time it was not the U.S. who were holding back, it was the Syrian delegation who had left the session and were unable to be found.

Your earlier statement about proving Arafat is a terrorist by showing evidence also comes a few years too late. In the 1960’s and 70’s wasn’t Arafat an influential figure in Black September or The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine?

My worry for the future is that your perfectly normal Palestinian freedom fighter will manage to get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction. If this happens I can only imagine that Israel would retaliate massively. One should remember that while the U.S. is a staunch ally of Israel, the Palestinians have the support of nations like Iraq and Libya, neither of whom have the most tolerant of governments.

Unfortunately, I can only see the situation spiralling further and further out of control.

Regards,

kev35

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 09:14 AM (GMT)]A 16 year old girl, well that only proves that the terrorists aren’t bearded Arabs who walk with a cane, but normal people, desperate civilians. What kind of normal 16-year old girl would join a terrorist group? She must have lost too many loved-ones, father, mother, brother, boy-friend, who knows.

RE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism

A statement on the news today summed it up well.

“With all of their modern weapons, tanks, and so on, they seem to be of little use against an invisible emeny”

The latest Palestinian bomber was a 16 year old girl! How can Israel ever hope to combat this kind of threat, arrest everyone?!?!

War againt poverty, not against terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 08:26 AM (GMT)]Nobody answered my question so far, but I can give you the answer: impossible!!

GarryB, Nazi’s and terrorists, those are the bad guys. You see how simplistic western media is? Killing twenty civilians is cruel, bad, inhuman. But does it matter if it comes from a Hamas-suicide-bomber or from an IDF AH-64 armed with TOW’s? Only the latter can be referred as ‘collateral damage’, while the terrorist act will be seen as … terrorism.

It looks like Sharon can finally realise his ‘lebensraum’ : the destruction of the Palestinian authority and the Israeli monopoly again over Jerusalem. Arafat is now an enemy, well he’s not seen as an enemy in most of the western states.

Sharon should do this.

1. If Arafat is a terrorist, than he must give the evidence and he can show it to the big public. This gives Sharon now the right to kill Arafat.

2. Arafat is not a terrorist. Leave the Palestinians alone and get out of their territories for good, with all the settlements ASAP!

The UN-security council is just laughable, an instrument of the cold war but has no use anymore, unless they change policies and nations like India, Iran can also join the council. 1 billion people in India are not represented (more than Europe and US topgether), while France or the UK are full-time members. How can one expect them to create peace if the US uses its VETO all the time. The veto is something dangerous, because this has NOTHING to do with human rights, just about lousy politics.

“The world are getting tired of this bull****.”

Indeed we are getting tired of it. Always here the same over and over again, peace, war, peace, war … The US can’t solve the problem, nor can the EU or even the UN. The only ones who can stop the fighting (I don’t call it terrorism, because not all PA freedom fighters are terrorists) are the Israeli’s and the Palestinians themselves. Well, if they can’t, both states have failed, and anarchy will win from democracy (democracy with the small d, now with the big D).

One last comment: for all of the people who still think the world has stopped after the 11th september, well it hasn’t! War on terrorism is not our first priority anymore. It’s the war on poverty we have to cope with, which creates terrorism. The Palestinians are not fighting because they are anti-semitic, they just fight back because they see how richness has been divided the past years, but none of it got to them. FIRST PRIORIRTY IS WAR ON POVERTY!

Regards,
Morpheus, South-Africa

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 05:26 AM (GMT)]”…going global war on terror.”

Don’t you mean war on Muslim terrorists?

I find it strange that some here think the IRA are somehow better than the Palesinians or Israelis. I have read about Australian tourists that have had their kneecaps removed in Northern Ireland because they walked down the wrong street and were of the wrong religion.
Their bombs also kill indiscriminantly too… all bombs do… even NATO ones.
I think the case of the IRA and the problems in the ME is simply of people using Religion to do what they want to do.
There will be no end to the problems in the middle east.
Not as long as there are people who think their beliefs are more important than someone elses life, or a dry barren dusty bit of land.

“What Israel is doing in the PA territories is just the same as what France did in Algeria, UK in South-Africa, Belgium in Congo and I can go on with this list endlessly. “

But it doesn’t insight anger till you get to… “Nazis in France”, “Nazis in Ukraine”, “Nazis in Russia”.

“Both Israeli/Palestinian must ask themselves one paramount question-do you want peace or not?If they do ,then stop the fighting.”

With the requirement for a week of peace before peace talks can be held 99.99% of palestinians and Israelis could desperately want peace and the remaining 0.01% could stop it simply by blowing them selves up one at a time every 6th day… all the power is in the hands of the loonies on both sides.

“The world are getting tired of this bull****.”

As long as the US thinks the Israelis can do no wrong the “World” will have more sway over whether the moon goes around the earth than over peace breaking out in the Middle East.
Is it just me or is the process where one sides closest ally is the “peace mediator” in a dispute that never seems to be solved is not surprising…

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

All this macho stuffs between the two side wont help the on going global war on terror.Both Israeli/Palestinian must ask themselves one paramount question-do you want peace or not?If they do ,then stop the fighting.The world are getting tired of this bull****.

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 00:40 AM (GMT)]Well, I think we can all agree that the current situation will lead to the destruction of both the Israeli and the Palestinian state. Yasser Arafat has been taken hostage by IDF-forces and Arier Sharon called him an enemy. This mean Israel can not conduct a dialogue with Arafat anymore, this will lead to a bigger flud of violence and terrorism.

One simple question: how can Israel expect Arafat to be a good leader and to stop terrorism, if tanks are waiting outside his door every morning. I don’t say Arafat is a saint, but he earned lots of respect in the west, especially in Europe.

To be honest: I don’t care anymore about the whole situation. I don’t know what to think about it. I wouldn’t say the Palestinians are the bad guys, nor are the Israeli’s. Both states are actually still young, toddlers when it comes to diplomacy. New states must prove that they can handle each situation, with brutal force. What Israel is doing in the PA territories is just the same as what France did in Algeria, UK in South-Africa, Belgium in Congo and I can go on with this list endlessly.

RE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-03-02 AT 04:59 PM (GMT)]Flanker 112 has a point. Rational people would find it impossible to condone the murder of innocent civilians, but when the perpetrators, acting as individuals are prepared to die in an attack I can’t see how it can be stopped, especially when suicide bombers come from both genders and various ages.

As a Brit, I cannot condone any of the paramilitary groups operating in Ireland, but to an extent I can understand them. With part of the population wanting a united Ireland and others wanting to remain with the Crown it is difficult to see how it can end in compromise. One half of the population may have an intense hatred of an ‘occupying army’ the other sees them as peace keepers. These problems stretch much further back in history than the ‘recent troubles’, somehow a political solution acceptable to all must be found. Perhaps the first step should be the decommissioning of weapons by ALL paramilitary groups. Flanker implies that ‘at least the IRA give warnings to the British Police when a bomb is about to explode’. History shows this not always to be true (the assassinations of Airey Neave and Lord Mountbatten, the bombing of Warrington) and when given are not always accurate. By the same token I think over the years the British Army have not been entirely blameless, nor have successive Governments.

Regarding the problems between Israel and the Palestinian people I fear Glenn is right. Both peoples have the right to exist but it seems unlikely they will ever be able to co-exist, so where the answer, or should I say acceptable answer, lies is a question proving ever more difficult to answer.

Regards,

kev35