Midget submarines

Four more midgets for Iran

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Iran_navy_equipped_with_four_new_submarines_999.html

Littoral Combat Ship’s Unmanned Surface Vehicle(USV)

General Dynamics Robotic Systems delivered a speedboat to the Navy last year called the Antisubmarine Warfare Unmanned Surface Vehicle, for use with the LCS.

The 36-ft.-long, semi-autonomous platform runs 24 hr. or longer and carries a payload of 5,000 lb. It will operate unmanned dipping sonar, towed array sonar and the Multistatic Off-Board Source low-frequency sonar. Data from the 360-deg. situational awareness these instruments generate will be transmitted to the LCS. Source

Details of the US Navy’s Draco ASW USV onboard the Littoral Combat Ship 😎

As a future enhancement the Draco ASW USV will also get a torpedo launcher.

With such technology available to ships like the LCS, midget submarines will find it difficult to operate.

Useful to support special forces troops and possibly limited defensive capabilities.

I remember seeing a Swedish concept for a small modular mini-sub that could be reconfigured for different missions such as patrol, mine laying or for supporting special ops. Not sure if it was ever developed.

—–JT—–

The sea Dagger?…..they are still plugging away with it….very slowly though.

Useful to support special forces troops and possibly limited defensive capabilities.

I remember seeing a Swedish concept for a small modular mini-sub that could be reconfigured for different missions such as patrol, mine laying or for supporting special ops. Not sure if it was ever developed.

—–JT—–

Navy Shifts to Multi-Missions

Greene says a new focus on the “brown” and “green” waters will require a shift to more “multi-mission” ships and forces. As the Navy’s newly released Naval Operations Concept 2010 (NOC) puts it, the service is “rebalancing” to better confront irregular threats, placing (slightly) more emphasis on brown water riverine operations, foreign training missions and maritime constabulary activities (counter-smuggling, piracy, etc.).

The Navy’s operational experience in irregular warfare is growing, Greene says. He points to the significant lessons learned from the accelerated deployment of the Littoral Combat Ships (LCS); the Fire Scout drone; the value of multi-missions ships such as the Vinson, Higgins and Bainbridge; the Africa Partnership Station; and ferried support to the Haiti relief efforts that will help shape requirements for the Joint High Speed Vessels (JHSV).

Certain ‘regular’ submarine classes like the Type 212B have the ability to deliver SF frogmen teams. Do these make use of attached minisubs?

SDV’s of various sizes….The Italian navy SF COMSUBIN have some “minisubs”.

Certain ‘regular’ submarine classes like the Type 212B have the ability to deliver SF frogmen teams. Do these make use of attached minisubs?

Source1

The United States is also fielding a deployable piece of underwater detection technology, called the Advanced Deployable System (ADS), that is built for shallow-water emergencies. The system proposes to use expendable, battery-powered passive acoustic arrays that are connected with fiberoptic cables. The system will be integrated into the Navy’s much-delayed but recently commissioned Littoral Combat Ship.

Source2

The Advanced Deployable System is a theater-deliverable acoustic surveillance system that will provide continuous acoustic coverage over vast ocean areas for an extended period. This is a theater-surveillance asset that will provide unique surveillance information to tactical forces. It will be capable of detecting quiet nuclear submarines, diesel-electric submarines on the battery, ships exiting or entering port, or mine-laying operations. The importance of this portable capability will intensify as our surveillance requirements increase, owing to the Navy’s focus on the littorals, the growing popularity of diesel submarines, and the downsizing of US forces.

Seems to be the perfect low-cost solution to handle this kind of asymmetric warfare.

It shouldn’t be all that demanding for Iran to build a mini-SOSUS in the gulf,
then build silo’s at the bottom and stuff wake homing torpedoes in them.

In the Gulf there should be a complex network system based on radars, optics and sonars. For both conflicting sides!
For Iran (and other weak sea powers) correct distribution of antiship weapon is very important. The secret and protected location is necessary. Because it is necessary to take cover from attacks of surpassing sea and air forces.
Stationary torpedo (and rocket) tubes at sea bottom have enormous difficulties with serviceability and control. Especially at distance from coast. Better 50 bottom mines than 1 mine-torpedo device.
Therefore «the mobile mine-torpedo» – a small torpedo submarine – is optimum. The crew is necessary for correct classification of targets and decision-making. Present-day UUVs are as yet not right-minded.

It shouldn’t be all that demanding for Iran to build a mini-SOSUS in the gulf,
then build silo’s at the bottom and stuff wake homing torpedoes in them.

Submarines of shallow water

Lets face it if you underslung a 21″ CAPTOR variant on a modestly enlarged REMUS6000 UUV, akin to the configuration of the WW2 German Marder midget subs, and set half a dozen of them off on a racetrack course in your favourite chokepoint you have much greater capability than even a flotilla of two or three of these minisubs!.

Opinion of Russian military magazine about small submarines with reference to sinking of Cheonan
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1604815&postcount=141

“JIG has considered possible to connect with sinking of Cheonan two North Korean submarines – 300-ton boat such as Sango and 130-ton such as Yeoneo, one of which could approach to corvette on distance of launch and fire a torpedo. These submarines be in service with the NK Navy and can carry 53-cm heavyweight torpedo. Sinking of Cheonan has broken 14-years silence of Lee Kwang Soo, the waterman of lost North Korean submarine in 1996. He was taken prisoner then and now lives in South Korea. On his data, if torpedoes are carry inside torpedo tubes on Sango, on smaller Yeoneo they can be placed outside of sub’s boards as on German midget submarines of WWII. And torpedo can be launched practically silently, as against noisy launch from torpedo tubes by air.

There is an opinion, that from small submarines it is impossible to apply “heavyweight” torpedoes. Certainly our submariners (who use sub with displacement in thousands of tons) are difficult to present opportunities a small torpedo sub. And intuitively it seems that light torpedoes will better. However, battle experience of the WWII has shown, that absolutely small, even tiny, boats can apply heavy torpedoes with success. So, Italian CB (displacement 50 tons) have been armed two 450 mm torpedoes, charge 200 kg. Japanese sub “type A” (50 tons) at attack to Pearl Harbour carried 2 torpedoes 450 mm, charge 350 kg. Despite of ridiculous displacement of German submarines (Biber – 4 tons, Molch – 9 tons, Seehund – 15 tons), all of them carried 2 torpedoes 533 mm, charge 300 kg. And all of this midgets sank enemy ships.”
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Today Russian widely offer on export small submarines displacement from 130 up to 1000 tons. The sub’s weapon are torpedoes, missiles, mines… Who will buy them?

….then again I could be wrong!!! 😀

http://defensetech.org/2010/06/08/if-you-find-one-of-our-undersea-robots-please-call-us-navy/

‘no so smart yet not exactly dumb mine’?

Precisely!.

Lets face it if you underslung a 21″ CAPTOR variant on a modestly enlarged REMUS6000 UUV, akin to the configuration of the WW2 German Marder midget subs, and set half a dozen of them off on a racetrack course in your favourite chokepoint you have much greater capability than even a flotilla of two or three of these minisubs!.

Mini-subs….the last word in mine warfare! 😀

‘no so smart yet not exactly dumb mine’?

Mini-subs….the last word in mine warfare! 😀

Poor sensors, poor situational awareness, poor mobility, limited endurance. Essentially a lot has to go wrong for an offensive task force commander if he’s let one of these get in so close that they get a firing solution on a major unit!.

Agreed!

Mini-subs….the last word in mine warfare! 😀

Poor sensors, poor situational awareness, poor mobility, limited endurance. Essentially a lot has to go wrong for an offensive task force commander if he’s let one of these get in so close that they get a firing solution on a major unit!.

Indeed, but if the nations that operate in the gulf were aware of a threat from midget subs in Hormuz i’d rather not put my money on the the midget subs.

They may pose a minor threat for a short amount of time, but one Cheonan type incident against Iran’s major naval rivals in Hormuz and suddenly the 2-4 torpedoes carried won’t seem like enough.

Minisubs are not meant for sustained ops anyway so I don’t get your point. Besides, doesn’t Iran also operate russian Kilo class SSKs?

Did you at all catch the recent sinking of a South Korean naval ship? The ship was blown in half by a torpedo. That probably was a mini-sub.

Indeed, but if the nations that operate in the gulf were aware of a threat from midget subs in Hormuz i’d rather not put my money on the the midget subs.

They may pose a minor threat for a short amount of time, but one Cheonan type incident against Iran’s major naval rivals in Hormuz and suddenly the 2-4 torpedoes carried won’t seem like enough.

Look at planeman’s blog

http://planeman-bluffersguide.blogspot.com/

These midget-submarines look as an interesting choice for littoral warfare for countries with low defense-budgets. But the question is: Are these toys really effective. I.e. can Iran disturb an allied fleet in the Persian Gulf with many of these toys?

Did you at all catch the recent sinking of a South Korean naval ship? The ship was blown in half by a torpedo. That probably was a mini-sub.

i know for a fact that the Pakistan Navy uses midget subs for covert insertion and extraction of combat diver of the SSGN (navy special forces). these are locally manufactured Italian X-class subs. you can find more info and pics on pakdef.