Midland air museum photos (26/08/04)

Arm Waver,
I think the escort was shared by a number of Police Forces as it moved through their respective areas – which Police Force was your dad with?. The pic in Aeroplane (October, 2003 page 71) shows it with a Jag escort behind it but there was probably a vehicle in front as well.

Roger Smith.

Sorry for the delay just catching up
Quite right my Dad was only part of the escort duties… The task as you say passed from one Force to the next along the route. He was in Northants police when he escorted her… I know there are several different escort photos.

Re Saudi lightning

Re former MOD airframes retaining their markings – If you look through the tender documents attached to the sale of these airframes there is usually a clause which refers you to removing said markings unless you apply to the air historical branch for permission to retain them. Fortunately they are not too interested in museum exhibits but as you say take a more active interest when they are destined to fly.

As for the flag – well at the end of the day the museum are complying to a request from BAe, made at the time it was aquired, which they have done and will probably continue to do so. If this offends your personal view of the aircraft then so be it, you can’t please everyone all the time !

If you wish to debate this further then please send me a PM and we can continue ‘off list’

Personally I think the fact that its back in Saudi mks is an achievement in itself rather than the psuedo RAF mks of other ex saudi machines and for the huge majority of visitors to the museum is more than enough.

Regards
Mark ray

Albert, the Flag on the tail includes a passage from the Koran and was always blessed after being applied to the aircraft, I believe. When the aircraft was aquired I am certain that BAe made it clear that they did not want that portion of the flag containing the text repainted on the aircraft, without the express permission of the Saudi’s.
It is no different than you technically having to apply to the MOD to retain any former service aircraft in its full marks after it has left service and goes into private hands.
At the end of the day the aircraft was virtually gifted from BAe as were a small number of other frames over the years, its a relationship which has served the museums interests and may well into the future, to jepodise it over the painting of a flag is not sensible, especially when 99.9% of visitors do not even notice.

Mark Ray
Former Trustee
The views expressed are my own and not representative of the current museum administration.

Do you mean to tell me that as each flag was applied to each Saudi Lightning on the production line at Warton, as the painter finished the last arabic ‘squiggle’, it was blessed??? :confused: How can this be related to MoD service aircraft retaining their military markings, as I thought that only applied if you FLEW them in those markings, not if they are in a museum.

Seems to me this is akin to displaying a Luftwaffe aircraft in a museum without a swastika on the tail, just in case you might offend someone!

A country can hardly condemn you for preserving its aircraft historically accurately, flag and all! After all, how many times does that flag have to be blessed?

Re: Saudi Lightning

Albert, the Flag on the tail includes a passage from the Koran and was always blessed after being applied to the aircraft, I believe. When the aircraft was aquired I am certain that BAe made it clear that they did not want that portion of the flag containing the text repainted on the aircraft, without the express permission of the Saudi’s.
It is no different than you technically having to apply to the MOD to retain any former service aircraft in its full marks after it has left service and goes into private hands.
At the end of the day the aircraft was virtually gifted from BAe as were a small number of other frames over the years, its a relationship which has served the museums interests and may well into the future, to jepodise it over the painting of a flag is not sensible, especially when 99.9% of visitors do not even notice.

Mark Ray
Former Trustee
The views expressed are my own and not representative of the current museum administration.

Saudi Lightning

I can never understand why MAM don’t paint the Saudi flag on the fin of the Lightning and complete the paint scheme! I took them to task over this, during my last visit, and was told the Saudi Flag is a religious symbol and they need permission to paint it on. They applied to the Saudi Embassy, but received no reply – years ago – so they are afraid of offending the Saudis by painting it on!! Surely, it is MAM’s aircraft and they can paint on it whatever they want? Are they scared of having some death threat cast over them for finishing the aircraft as it once was? It’s only a flag!! 😮

PM in inbox

At the end of the day, the B.P. P.111 is at a museum and not been scrapped like most aircraft are. Regardless of where or how it’s kept, it is in good hands and the future of the aircraft is looking bright, all be it some distance away. The aircraft will eventually be put inside and until then, we will, and are, keeping close tabs on the condition of the airframe………it will not get in any worse a state than it already is!!

Hello Robmac
I sent you a private message about the P.111a a few days ago. Could you please check your inbox?
Thank you and best regards
Fabio Beato

I think apart from the p-111A the biggest shame at midland is the Mig-killer F4C which has been in a decaying state since i last went there about 10 years ago

I think there is some confusion here

F-4C 37699 (MiG killer) is in good condition, on display (although outdoors), well looked after and the cockpit is regularly opened for visitors to get into.

F-4C 37414 is stored in pieces.

If I remember rightly the USAF at Woodbridge kindly offered to prepare 37414 for transport to the Museum but omitted to say they would do this by cutting the wings off (but don’t quote me). The Museum were then able to acquire a 37699 “complete” at Upper Heyford which was moved in one piece.

Roger Smith.

Papa Lima,

My wife tolerates alot things regarding my hobbies….but she has drawn the line at me taking a stepladder along with me! I did climb the one in the picture , just to see what it was like!!!

Kilvy

Hi Kilvy, aren’t you supposed to be on the stepladder (last pic), instead of photographing it?

midland phantom

hello

I think apart from the p-111A the biggest shame at midland is the Mig-killer F4C which has been in a decaying state since i last went there about 10 years ago, surely this should be given to a museum who could look after it, I recently mentioned this aircraft to a friend in the states and he said that air museums in the states are crying out for mig-killers, why i wonder are we condeming ours to sit outside maybe they should sent it back to sunnier climes.

As a sideline to the above are there any other Mig-killers in U.K museums?

curlyboy

Midland Air Museum (recent visit)

I made my first vist to the museum at Coventry at the end of March. The staff were great and the aircraft were obviously well looked after. The Canberra was spectacular! 🙂

Kilvy

Escorting the P.111a

Arm Waver,
I think the escort was shared by a number of Police Forces as it moved through their respective areas – which Police Force was your dad with?. The pic in Aeroplane (October, 2003 page 71) shows it with a Jag escort behind it but there was probably a vehicle in front as well.

Roger Smith.

I have a personal connection with the BP P.111 – my dad escorted it along the M1 – the picture in the magazines at the time show a Range Rover police escort – That was my dad…!
Just though I’d share that…
OAW

I always feel quite avuncular when I see the TSR2 at Cosford as my dad escorted it to Henlow in 1967 or so. No Range Rover – a Triumph Saint.
Very handy, we went up the following weekend and looked around all the aircraft they’d collected there for BofB.

At the end of the day, the B.P. P.111 is at a museum and not been scrapped like most aircraft are. Regardless of where or how it’s kept, it is in good hands and the future of the aircraft is looking bright, all be it some distance away. The aircraft will eventually be put inside and until then, we will, and are, keeping close tabs on the condition of the airframe………it will not get in any worse a state than it already is!!

Hello Robmac,
You mentioned a future restoration work on the P111a: do you know if this involves “only” the structure and paint job or the aircraft is missing some important parts? For example is the cockpit still complete? I’ve never seen a walkaround of this exhibit and just liked to know what are the general condition aside from a rather ‘sad’ look.
Best Regards
Fabio Beato

Fabio

It does mainly involve airframe and paintwork but no, it does not mean recovery of parts for it. The aircraft is complete and hopefully when the move and restoration does occur it will be well documented and pictures will hopefully become available. We have other projects that need to be finished before anything on the P.111 is done, but the forum will be informed as soon as the work starts on the airframe.

We are currently looking at plans to put the P111 inside and completely restore her again but these things take time.

Hello Robmac,
You mentioned a future restoration work on the P111a: do you know if this involves “only” the structure and paint job or the aircraft is missing some important parts? For example is the cockpit still complete? I’ve never seen a walkaround of this exhibit and just liked to know what are the general condition aside from a rather ‘sad’ look.
Best Regards
Fabio Beato

Roger – When the Boulton Paul became available the collection at Cosford was run by a Sergeant on the base and wasn’t anything more than a station museum. It would be
many years before it became the Aerospace museum with the resulting funding.
There are a number of people very concerned about the future for the BP111.
Certainly when I did an article on the repaint of the Hunter into Black Arrows markings circa 2001 she was due into the Robin hangar imminently. Due to problems
with her noseleg this hasn’t happened -indeed on a recent visit the nose was still supported by a steel support. Whilst the Sea Harrier is undoubtedly a good addition
to the collection – her space in the Robin hangar is much more deserved by the BP111.
It’s great to say that we acquired her and all that but reality must at some stage take effect – the BP111 is a national artifact and deserves a roof.

It’s been mentioned before, but it is a crying shame to see the Boulton Paul P.111 condemned to fester outside, when it should by rights be tucked away at Cosford with the research aircraft collection.

Steve,
Whilst the Boulton Paul BP111 would look good at Cosford with other research jets (and it was built in nearby Wolverhampton) when the aircraft became available at Cranfield 30 Years ago Cosford didn’t want it – largely, if I recall correctly, because they couldn’t move it.
The Midland Aircraft Preservation Society could move it and, with a great deal of help from Leamington Spa Ford dealer (Soans) and “Arm Waver’s” dad, did so in July, 1975 to Coventry Airport to await completion of the erection of the fence of the new Midland Air Museum.
The other reasons it is at MAM are that it is a Midlands aeroplane and has a great deal to do with the development of a particular type of jet-powered aeroplane – the delta.

Roger Smith.

It is – about six feet of it if I recall correctly, along with some other bits and pieces. Armstrong Whitworth were about half a mile away at Whitley (it’s now the Jaguar Engineering Centre, which is where I’m writing this!).

John C

Slightly more than six feet of fuselage (no rear turret) and it has the starboard tailplane and starboard fin attached.
Althought the prototye Whitley was built at/flown from Whitley the production line was at the (then) brand new factory at Baginton – within sight of the Museum.

Roger Smith.

Thanx Atlantic1

I will look around for a 72nd scale Argosy.