Miles Monarch to be ejected from East Fortune Museum

For everyone’s information, the Listed hangars at East Fortune are of the rather rare pre-war Callendar Hamilton type with an intricate internal roof structure and they are therefore certainly of national importance especially as they appear to have been altered very little since they were built. I think I heard at the time that the problem with the height of the hangar inrelation to Concorde’s tail-fin did delay re-fitting the fin until the required permissions were obtained.

Regarding the hanging banners at East Fortune – I hope the idea doesn’t catch on in any other aviation museums – I think they are a darned nuisance and detract rather than add anything to the displays. Let’s keep to discreet pedestal-mounted aircraft details, I say!

I second that. The majority of museums I know use the free standing floor display for the info and then only as much as the average man in the street wants, not the ammount anoraks like us would prefer. Hanging banners do nothing to attract the punters as far as I can see.

Davef68

Well they certainly seem to have had to apply for PP for the changes to the contemporary brick out buildings such as the colour of the MOT station, the Historic Scotland permission is there. Regarding the Scheduled Ancient Monument that you refer to, looking up Historic Scotland’s list of them :

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/wwd_ancientmonuments_results.htm?Keywords=east+fortune&Council=210&Classification=0&CallBack=TRUE

“East Fortune,airfield , East Lothian , Secular , NT541788’

It would be interesting to see the real detail as to the extent of the site. The follow up is are the hangars etc listed ?

And a quick check with Historic Scotland :

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/wwd_listedbuildings_results.htm?Keywords=east+fortune&Council=210&Parish=0&CallBack=TRUE&submit.x=48&submit.y=4

East Fortune Airfield, Hangars 101/1, 100/ii, 99/iii , 29/11/1990 , B , East Lothian
East Fortune Airfield, Hangar 98/iv , 29/11/1990 , B , East Lothian
East Fortune Airfield, Main Stores 111/25 , 29/11/1990 , B , East Lothian
East Fortune Airfield, Main Workshops 108/28 , 29/11/1990 , B , East Lothian
East Fortune Airfield, Parachute Stores 109/27 , 29/11/1990 , B , East Lothian
East Fortune Hospital, Recreation Hall 3 , 19/06/1991 , B , East Lothian

In the list above the letter “B” refers to the listing category, “Category B: Buildings of regional or more than local importance, or major examples of some particular period, style or building type which may have been altered.”

So all four hangars are at least listed and I imagine that cutting the roof structure would then require planning permission ?

fauxpas,

I understand where you are coming from, but lets be clear – my point is that in order for any organisation of this type to survice, they must look at a wide range of funding initiatives. If I were in their situation, I would be looking at it in the following way:

1) Concorde is a bigger draw to the general public than all other types; therefore
2) We use Concorde and its presence not only as a means to bring more people on site, but also to raise more funds to support the rest of the museum such that
3) Long term we can improve the facilities of the museum to bring the displaced aircraft back out of ‘store’ and back on general display in better facilities.

I do however think that if the thought behind taking the BA collection from Cosford is that it will further increase throughput in the same way that Concorde has, then it is a mistake. That said, I am sure there will be a significant donation from BAe which will help with point (2) above.

I dont believe that offering Concorde and its surroundings as a venue in any way affects the museum and its core directives. Short term, the arrival of the aircraft has caused a good deal of displacement, and a great deal of ill feeling from persons previously involved on site. It is my belief that long term, it may have been the shot in the arm the museum needed.

Bruce

2) Your said “I also refreshed my memory of the Concorde hanger and now remember why it won’t be moving about much as the roof trusses had to be altered to allow it in.”. No, its the exact opposite! East Fortune has conservation orders on the buildings. The museum could not get permanent permission for the Concorde stuff, looking at the East Lothian planning permission applications (http://www.planning.eastlothian.gov.uk/) click on the tab “search application” (don’t try and log on) and enter application number 04/00714/FUL in the correct box. It states they only have five years permission (from July 2005) for the shops etc which they erected and they must have the site clear and restored by the end of that period.
Surprisingly, I don’t see mention of permission for the modifications to the Hangar roof, do they have permission for this I wonder ? Some things would not surprise me.

It appears that Concorde was brought to East Fortune without permanent planning permission, it cannot stay where it is and no other hangars are big enough.

I disagree Fauxpas – the Planning App soley relates to the erection of the Portaca…, sorry, temporary building rather than Concorde (which, as it is stuck inside a hanger, doesn’t require PP on it’s own. Nor does any outside aircraft due to the nauture of the PP for the site as a whole). The plan always was to replace that with ‘something else’ outwith the Scheduled Ancient Monument area

I also suspect that the slight mod to the hanger wouldn’t have needed PP either, as IIRC, being relatively modern, it’s NOT part of the SAM listing. They may have needed building control (sorry, Standards) approval

Bruce, Seaking93

Gentlemen, you are barking up the wrong tree. Robert made assumptions about where the Cosford material was going to be stored and that concorde was immovable. My answer was supported by evidence to point out that reality was different to some peoples suppositions.

If I’ve confused the issue with facts then I can only apologise, it is difficult to get hard evidence about what goes on at East Fortune, more especially about what is not going on.

Rather than we engage in glib speculation about what the museum must or must not do, happily their responsibilities are legally defined by the National Heritage (Scotland) Act 1985. The trustees are obliged to this standard by The Ethical Standards in Public Life etc. (Scotland) Act 2000 .

The NMS themselves state that their principle functions are set out in section 2(1) of this act :

a) care for, preserve, and add to the objects in their collection
b) secure that the objects are exhibited to and interpreted for the public
c) secure that the objects are available to persons seeking to inspect them in connection with study or research
d) generally promote the publics awareness, appreciation and understanding of matters agricultural, archaeological, artistic, cultural, environmental, historical, industrial, military, scientific and social , by means of the boards collections and by other such means, including collaboration with other institutions, as they consider appropriate; and
e) provide education, instruction and advice and carry out research.
(source : http://www.nms.ac.uk/nms/docs/about/NMS_ANNUAL_ACCOUNTS_04-05.pdf )

Even a publicly funded museum such as East Fortune has to make money, the parent body had an income of £24.8M last year for all its museums, free admission only applies to the two main Edinburgh ones, East Fortune etc have long charged admission which has increased significantly even if you are not seeing concorde.

I’d imagine that the sequencing of the items from section 2(1) gives a clue about the difference between a theme park and a publicly funded museum.

I for one struggle to understand how removing elderly historic aircraft from the sole environmentally conditioned hangar on the site (required for concorde etc ) and placing them in cold, damp (occasionally sodden) hangars fits in with the top requirement “ a) care for, preserve, . . .”

You may not like the idea of museums using their facilities for corporate functions, but if they dont do similar types things to attract funding, then there wont be a museum for us to see.

This is very common in the museum world at present – Elvington has hired out its T2 for similar functions for many years; Hendon plays regular host to car auctions and so on. We are building our new facility with the intention of being able to use it for corporate events in the future.

Weddings in Concorde – Why not? Might be a bit cramped, but weddings are very big business these days. Good for them for trying to get a piece of the action.

We were approached last year to host a wedding in our hangar, with the Mosquito as back-drop. Sadly we had to decline, as we didnt have the necessary permissions or space, but that is the only reason…

Museums who rely solely on enthusiasts to come through the door will not survive. We all have to treat our organisations as a business and find the best and most efficient ways of making money.

Bruce

Bruce, you are so right, if the FAAM had to rely solely on enthusiasts it would have closed several years ago, we also hold dinners and dances under Concorde to bring in extra money and also have several other function rooms available for hire, its a fact of life in 2006

Regarding the hanging banners at East Fortune – I hope the idea doesn’t catch on in any other aviation museums – I think they are a darned nuisance and detract rather than add anything to the displays. Let’s keep to discreet pedestal-mounted aircraft details, I say!

Too late, Hendon’s full of them too.

To me, one of the more irritating things of the many…

Ah well another faux pas on my part. Well what can they buy with £100,000? I havn’t though about getting married in Concorde at East Fortune (already managed the marrying bit many years ago and certainly won’t be doing that again), but I understand that only the main wedding party get in Concorde the rest of the wake…sorry festivities take place underneath and around it. Perhaps the Boeing 707 part fuselage could be used as the seating for the gusts linked by video camera to Concorde . but that might cost more than £100K if you take consultants costs into consideration. What a lot of sad people we are sitting at our computers at this time on a Saturday night!!! What we call in Scotland Jimmy no friends! So its off to the pub now.

Robert, sadly the Gulbenkian prize is not £500k but £100k, still, should pay for cleaning the concorde carpets after the first wedding (irony)

Some might even suggest a plan to get Scotland’s sole Vulcan (and Falklands War veteran) undercover – I will always be a firm believer in preserving what you have already before getting more .

The Principle Curator for Transport at the National Museums of Scotland is quoted in the paper as saying “I think this acquisition will strengthen our bid for the Gulbenkian Prize”. It was also stated in the paper that “He said that the planes , which are all rarities in the UK, would be displayed as part of an exhibition charting the history of passenger flights , to be unveiled in a £10million ten-year masterplan for the museum in July”.
We await with interest to see what the masterplan contains. I suppose a £500,000 Gulbenkin prize might pay for some paint for the Comet,and materials to help with restoration of the Bolingbroke and the Anson etc etc……. but I suspect it might have an alternative use.

Lovely stuff Glynn

All the talk about the Monarch, I have just realised I have a picture of the M.17 Monarch taken around 1949/1950.

Glyn

I think there is a difficult line to tread between being a National Museum which has a responsibility to the tax payer to preserve items of national importance and being an attraction which might fund itself and a little more but provide little in terms of collecting policy.
The disposal of the Miles Monarch is strange – however to retain the M18 which is fairly insignificant in terms of Scotland and the Miles story is bizarre. There is a Miles Magister up at Strathallen which could very happily
fill the place of the M18 at East Fortune and provide a type which trained a great number of Scottish pilots.
What happens in the future at East Fortune remains to be seen but as things seem to be progressing Scotland will have a good venue for corporate wine parties and aircraft enthusiast weddings and precious little else!
Finding a happy balance between a collection of exhibits and ‘experiences’ is difficult – I hope someone goes to East Fortune who can get it back on the straight and level and elevate it to ‘National’ status as opposed to being ‘flavour of the month’ museum.

You may not like the idea of museums using their facilities for corporate functions, but if they dont do similar types things to attract funding, then there wont be a museum for us to see.

This is very common in the museum world at present – Elvington has hired out its T2 for similar functions for many years; Hendon plays regular host to car auctions and so on. We are building our new facility with the intention of being able to use it for corporate events in the future.

Weddings in Concorde – Why not? Might be a bit cramped, but weddings are very big business these days. Good for them for trying to get a piece of the action.

We were approached last year to host a wedding in our hangar, with the Mosquito as back-drop. Sadly we had to decline, as we didnt have the necessary permissions or space, but that is the only reason…

Museums who rely solely on enthusiasts to come through the door will not survive. We all have to treat our organisations as a business and find the best and most efficient ways of making money.

Bruce

Robert,

Two things concerning the Concorde hangar at EF :

1) The space is reserved for more important things than aircraft. The reason is hidden away on the corporate part on the national museum web site : (http://events.nms.ac.uk/html/mof.htm) :

“Have you ever wondered what it is like to fly at 60,000 feet at Mach 2 in one of the most stylish aeroplanes ever designed? Well now you and your clients can find out. almost!
The supersonic venue at East Fortune, situated 20 miles outside Edinburgh in East Lothian, is the only Concorde Experience in the British Isles that allows events to be held inside the hangar where the glamorous plane now rests. Events held at this unique venue also offer the opportunity for guests to climb aboard the plane, see inside the cockpit and gain a glimpse of the luxurious lifestyle of the jet’s rich and famous passengers.
Private and corporate clients will be able to enjoy The Concorde Experience for all types of exciting events – receptions, dinners, product launches and weddings. The venue can cater for events both large and small – a dinner for up to 800 guests or a intimate wedding on board.”

That seems to be the story so far, whether they squeeze in any of the junk from Cosford in seems dubious – its going to affect how big the wedding receptions can be (and what sort of people would allow weddings inside a “preserved” aircraft ?).

2) Your said “I also refreshed my memory of the Concorde hanger and now remember why it won’t be moving about much as the roof trusses had to be altered to allow it in.”. No, its the exact opposite! East Fortune has conservation orders on the buildings. The museum could not get permanent permission for the Concorde stuff, looking at the East Lothian planning permission applications (http://www.planning.eastlothian.gov.uk/) click on the tab “search application” (don’t try and log on) and enter application number 04/00714/FUL in the correct box. It states they only have five years permission (from July 2005) for the shops etc which they erected and they must have the site clear and restored by the end of that period.
Surprisingly, I don’t see mention of permission for the modifications to the Hangar roof, do they have permission for this I wonder ? Some things would not surprise me.

It appears that Concorde was brought to East Fortune without permanent planning permission, it cannot stay where it is and no other hangars are big enough. I can find no trace of permission for the hangar modifications. I wonder if they have permission for these large evening entertainment functions that have displaced the aircraft ?

It would be refreshing if a public body was more honest and open, but very unusual.

I bet my mate from APSS is pulling what’s left of his hair out over this (If he’s got any left after what he called the ‘Concorde fiasco’).

Looks like there keeping some of the most interesting exhibits in storage then – nice to see the Bolingbroke with a Bristol Mercury attached, does it have both of them on?

I’m quite sure that both engines are on, this photo is from early 2004 so if they haven’t taken them off since….. (looks like the aircraft hasn’t moved since then either).

Regarding the hanging banners at East Fortune – I hope the idea doesn’t catch on in any other aviation museums – I think they are a darned nuisance and detract rather than add anything to the displays. Let’s keep to discreet pedestal-mounted aircraft details, I say!