Mine warfare

How long would it take to sweep the 2000sq.nm field HE described well – to get all of them – months would be the answer!

Try years mate, even long after WWII ended, in 1998 the RAN found a mine just off the coast on New South Wales it had drifted off its moarings and come dangerously close to civilian trafic in the area, HMAS Huon was on hand inside 24hrs to sweep the rest of the area, needless to say that not all mine fileds are clearly marked. And the employ of them in covert measures does not include use of GPS positioning to determin their position for friendly forces let alone enemy captured documents. Thus an area the size he is talking about might never be totally free at all!

Ideally the use of Mines would restrict the enemy into coming down a narrow passage where you would have better defences to handle seaward approaches, low cover over the mine field would be handled by Helo patrols and top cover would be your own fighters on a marpat mission. Add to the equasion the use of AWACS and even J-STARS or ASTOR or a simlar system and you have a total denial area favouring your forces over a numerically superior enemy.

It must also be said that there have been huge advances in Underwater mine warfare these days and UUCV’s are starting to be come a force multiplyer rather than a novelty, they are serious enough that the USN is now looking at designs incorperating UUCV’s with mother subs, I have seen a couple of the designs leaked to Popular Mechanics but this is still some way off (at least 50 years).

Gollevainen is dead on the mark. The purpose of a minefield is sea denial and virtual attrition. Suppressing Iranian anti-ship systems would be critical to the sweeping operation, so much so that a pop-up threat such as a single mobile, shore-based, Styx battery unmasking could cease all MCM ops and delay passage of an entire CVBG.

How long would it take to sweep the 2000sq.nm field HE described well – to get all of them – months would be the answer!. It works no different to sweeping mines ashore in that a ‘swept lane’ is created through a field to allow passage for the vessels that need to go through quickly. RN minehunters do between 1-3knts ‘on sweep’ so a lot will depend on the shape of the field and the route through it taken.

3 hunters in a group should be able to sweep about a 1500-2000ft wide channel along a 60nm path in 48-60hrs especially if the field isnt very dense as in the given example.

Ideally though you have assets in place to watch out for someone attempting to lay a field of that size and you get the laying vessels boarded and seized under international maritime law!

well im no expert, but from my comon sense, the first thing needed, would be domination of the area. Most important task of mining is sea denial and to force enemy to concentrate its forces into what suits you better. All mines can be detected, but if you have means of destroying the vunerable MCM vesseles, the enemy would need to focus on protecting them whit more capital units, and therefore those are out of other purposes.

To restore movments in your mentioned scennario would require atleast some ammount of aircrafts and helicopters to go against Iranian Missile FAC that could harras those mine sweepers/hunters. Either strike them in their bases (if its known) or to be on constant allert when ever those FACs are spotted , also air superiority, that those air units mentioned can be send there safely. For actual minesweeping operations, I cannot really say anything out of better knowlidge :confused: but nevetheles, it would tie some possiple intruders forces for at least some period of time

Question for experts on MCM.

In what term it will be possible to restore movement across Persian Gulf if Iran will lay large mine field? And what forces will be necessary?
The area of the mine field – 100х20 nmiles. 500 modern bottom mines (a three-channel fuze) plus 1500 of ” false mines » (similar to a bottom mine).

Ja Worsely:
AFAIK the MH-60S AMCM birds are due to replace the MH-53 from aroung 2007, though the transition will be gradual. In fact the whole OAMCM mission kit won’t be completely operational until 2010 at the earliest. The MH-53 will be retained for longer range/endurance operations but requires more space and logistical train so deployability may be an issue. With the new range of equipment (no longer heavy sleds only the bigger MH-53 can handle) the level of capability should be increased overall if you take the endurance out of the picture.

RN is likely right up there, however you may be forgetting the Scandinavian countries mentioned before in this thread, the Netherlands, Germany (a supplier of fair number of designs like Italy). Not sure about what capability South Africa can still get out of their ancient Lindau class boats and the River class unless upgrades are initiated at some point. USN isn’t exactly making much use of their MHC fleet. The Osprey class is fairly new and there appear to be plans to sell a few to Egypt and Greece.

I never really got to finish what I wanted to say before but that’s ok, I can continue after I answer some of the questions here!

what I meant was which part of world’s oceans are most suitable for mining I know a few like baltic, persian gulf etc
but can more important shipping lanes be closed like straits of malacca?

Certainly yes, a lot of the worlds shipping lanes go through the Malaca straights, even holding Singapore at ransom with Mines is a dangerous thought. And if you have subs capable of deploying mines then some of the worlds harbours come to mind. Imagin a terrorist navy mining the lanes to Faslane? The UK would be hold up to no end, though IMHO the RN has some of the best anti-mine technology in the world (even better than the Americans). Other important shipping places that could be mined would be both the canals (Suez and Panama), The Yellow sea preventing surface vessels getting in there because it is already too shallow for subs. the Sea between the Kamchutkas and the mainland, even Thailand could come under threat!

do you think waters around the kurils would have seen extensive mining?

No not really, The Japanese know that the islands are theirs, and the Russians know it too, but since these were taken as a war prize in the Russo-Jap war of 1905 I seriously doubt that any move by Japan will be taken to reclaim them, the Japanese have far more important things to worry about (e.g. North Korea and China).

Norway has a quite good MCM fleet.

They do indeed and with a lot of home grown tech it has done itself credit.

Slightly off topic,but are those torpedo launchers that are marooned at the bottom of lets say sea and waiting for the submarine or ship to pass ,in service with any Navy in the world? Its not quite the mine talk,but if you think about it,it can be described as an “active” mine that actually attacks its target,rather than stay dormant.

I know what you are talking about mate and let me assure you that there are nothing like those around in this world (thankfully). Underwater torpedo launchers that are acting as mines, deadly stuff but what you have to realise is that having a torpedo in place in such a system is only effective for x amount of time, after that the explosives onboard start to decay and the system then becomes unstable. Having a system like this would require a lot of maintainence with current technologies and systems, the fuel needs tending and the explosives need regular checks. If you keep sending people to maintain these things, then other people are going to notice it and know what’s down there!

I wonder how these types of weapons would be dealth with?

Simple mate, they carry torpedos so treat them as subs. Fire off noise makers and destroy the fish then take out the launch platform.

what is the naval response to these mine technologies, tactics and lessons from history?

well those navies that are serious about a mine threat try to stay on the cutting edge of the technologies involved here. Tactics are deveolped over time and only those navies who have really needed it have anything decent in place. Lessons, well the best lessons come from having been in a war using mines, as I said before Australia has alsways beein in sucha a position even during WWI so our lessons have been handed down from our great great grandfathers!

Ever less dedicated mine countermeasures vessels are in existence, and as far as I recall few if any new projects are in existence that will deliver new ones. The trend seems to be for other ships that can also do MCM with the use of autonomous undersea vehicles (AUVs) and remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) for detection and expendable mine destructor mini-ROVs.

Australia has had ROV’s in use for a long time now, our old Bay class had the cutting edge ROV’s from France back when they entered service. We had a bit of trouble with them but sorted it our really quick, I think with the new Huons we have a different system but still ROV’s are a majore part of the MCM vessel’s ops.

In addition to this we have the Airborne Mine Countermeasures (AMCM) concept, which is being developed further in the US for use in the LCS MCM mission suite. Seeing as this involves the use of a special MH-60S variant equipped with towed bodies, and my favourite, a cabin door mounted laser and 30mm gun firing supercavitating ammunition to detect and disable mines in the surf zone, this brings us back to naval aviation.

How do these compare to the MH-53’s? I think the Japanese EH-101’s would be more of a comparrison don’t you?

Of all the worlds MCM forces, I feel (and this comes after having seen these forces in action), that the RN has the best, followed by the RAN, then the Italian’s and the South African’s, floating around would be the best way to describe the USN’s MCM vessels, though their airbourne assets are very capable and actually pick up the slack.

In light of all of this…

what is the naval response to these mine technologies, tactics and lessons from history?

Ever less dedicated mine countermeasures vessels are in existence, and as far as I recall few if any new projects are in existence that will deliver new ones. The trend seems to be for other ships that can also do MCM with the use of autonomous undersea vehicles (AUVs) and remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) for detection and expendable mine destructor mini-ROVs. In addition to this we have the Airborne Mine Countermeasures (AMCM) concept, which is being developed further in the US for use in the LCS MCM mission suite. Seeing as this involves the use of a special MH-60S variant equipped with towed bodies, and my favourite, a cabin door mounted laser and 30mm gun firing supercavitating ammunition to detect and disable mines in the surf zone, this brings us back to naval aviation. Japan is also currently receiving its first EH101 based MCM helicopters.

From the point of history view, experience of the Korean War is most interesting. It has shown, that mines can detain large landing operations. Mines become, thus, a strategic weapon. If North Koreans laid at Inchon of only 100-200 modern bottom mines, landing could not take place during necessary time. And war would go completely under other script…

It is interesting, that the majority of the western experts are ready to discuss ” struggle against mines “, but not ” efficiency of the mine weapon “. Russia – the native land of sea mines and is given development of this weapon enough efforts.

Mines can be used practically everywhere at depth less than 1 km. All depends on a target, an opportunity of laying of mines and an opportunity “to serve” mine areas (protection against investigation and sweeping, and opportunity of installation of mines in cleared areas).
Mass laying of advanced bottom mines (depth of the sea – down to 100m) is most effectively. Their destruction can demand so much time, that movement of fighting and trading ships courts can be interrupted for significant time. Thus can be applied a plenty of ” false mines ” and UUV-killers . The cleared areas can be mined again with the help self-propelled mines and small underwater and surface vehicles. Persian Gulf is optimal for such mine war.
For more deep-water areas mine-rockets are effective. At a rare mine laying and mass application of ” false mines ” the large areas appear are constantly dangerous to navigation

Slightly off topic,but are those torpedo launchers that are marooned at the bottom of lets say sea and waiting for the submarine or ship to pass ,in service with any Navy in the world? Its not quite the mine talk,but if you think about it,it can be described as an “active” mine that actually attacks its target,rather than stay dormant.

I wonder how these types of weapons would be dealth with?

Norway has a quite good MCM fleet.

[QUOTE=Ja Worsley]

It’s obvious that those nations which relly on sea trade for survival will see the greater side of MW operations. Australia has one of the most modern fleets of MHC’s and we regularly deploy them on excersises to keep their skills up. Apart from our Hydrographic ships, our MW craft spend the most time at sea, even more than our patrol boats.

what i meant was which part of world’s oceans are most suitable for mining i know a few like baltic,persian gulf etc
but b=can mortant shipping lanes be closed like straits of malacca

Well if it had of come down to it, the entire Baltic would have been blocked off, The Aluetians would have been hard fought for and Japan might have been Russian, IMHO

do you think waters around the kurils would have seen extensive mining?.

Ok I’ll bite despite my reservations here (I don’t want to get this section shut down again)

what is the future of MW?

The Future is bright despite what you might think, MW is still the most effective way of blockading a harbour or SLOC as we found out in 2003 when the RN and RAn were called in to remove Mines placed by the Iraqi’s to stop ships entering port.

which regions of the world are likely to see high intensity MW operations

It’s obvious that those nations which relly on sea trade for survival will see the greater side of MW operations. Australia has one of the most modern fleets of MHC’s and we regularly deploy them on excersises to keep their skills up. Apart from our Hydrographic ships, our MW craft spend the most time at sea, even more than our patrol boats. Due to manning shortages, we have had to lay the first two up in a ready reserve state. This means that they have a minimum manning crew but do not leave the dock. I am for leasing these two out to New Zealand or Fiji or even PNG who also have a need for this type of capability.

which campaigns do you like the most from the past

For me, the actions in Sydney harbour are close to me, my grandfather was here on deployment at the time. We had two lanes one in and one out, plus Boom nets and mines everywhere and yet the Japanese mini subs still got in, sure they didn’t get out, but they got in and that’s what counts!

which countries are likely to use this weapon to their advantage

As I said before, those who depend on SLOC’s for survival, Iraq did in 03 and it took months to clear up all the mines encountered. Indonesia would be one of the first countries I’d say would use them should anything happen, same with Taiwan.

are the good old minelayers surface ships obsolete? their role taken over by subs and aircraft?

Not entirely, most mine warfare ships these days can not only kill them but lay them as well, the most noteable design here is the Danish Stanflex 300 design. But I have seen tankers converted in to Covert mine layers with dozens, if not hundreds of mines ready to splash out and that’s the real reason why each ship is boarded in the gulf, you just never know which ships is carrying mines!

If war had broken out between WP and NATO in the baltic what role MW would have played?

Well if it had of come down to it, the entire Baltic would have been blocked off, The Aluetians would have been hard fought for and Japan might have been Russian, IMHO.

can it be a important factor in any future confrontation between North and south korea

Absolutly, though not so much on the deep water side, more likeinshore mines and stuff to prevent landings, just like Normandie in WWII.

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Mines are best and the most cost-effective solution for coastal naval warfare as it requires no high technology nor oversized surface combadants. Almoust every ship canbe fitted with mineracks (like soviets, almoust every warship had minerails) and special minelayer ships are usually multirole vessels, like Finnish Pohjanmaa and Swedish Karlskorna (minelayer/traiing ships) or Finnish Hämeenmaa class and Yugoslavian Sliba class (minelayer/transport-amphibious ships)

Multi-purpose vessels I think are the way to go like you say for the future of mine warfare.
WW2 accounts mention anti-sweeping devices ??? are they still used?

steveO nice thread thanks
what possible scenarios could mines play a important role
one is obvious the persian gulf the iranians have a lot of mines
secondly what about Indians laying mines in karachi or gwadar harbours by subs and Bear aircrafts?

Who in the view of the forum members currently operates the most advanced Minehunters ? Is there a comparison somewhere on the net apart from the earlier discussion ?

I know the RN are supposed to be doing something on this soon for their next generation boats but I don’t think anything has been published yet

Well Mines are the key element of Finnish naval tacktics, have been and will be for years to come. As you mentioned the Germans minings back in the 41 (which were mostly done by us :diablo: ), baltic sea and exspecially our wide and fuzzy shoreline with housands of little islands and narrow passes is ideal for minewarfare. All baltic navyes have strong capapility to lay deadly minefields.

Mines are best and the most cost-effective solution for coastal naval warfare as it requires no high technology nor oversized surface combadants. Almoust every ship canbe fitted with mineracks (like soviets, almoust every warship had minerails) and special minelayer ships are usually multirole vessels, like Finnish Pohjanmaa and Swedish Karlskorna (minelayer/traiing ships) or Finnish Hämeenmaa class and Yugoslavian Sliba class (minelayer/transport-amphibious ships)

Mines are probably a greater threat to navies than any other current weapon system and they should be the weapon of choice for any country that needs to defend it’s shores but can’t match the threat on equal terms.

There are a lot of mine counter measure systems in service and under development so I think future mines will need some sort of self defence weapon such as a pop up missile to attack mine warfare ships and helicopters.

Here is a old thread on Mine Hunters http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46416&highlight=Mine+warfare