More Ryanair reductions out of Dublin…

Its strange, Ryanair go on about high costs so they are cutting staff, aircraft abd routes at DUB and yet the announce 6 weekly Dublin-Memmingem (Munich West), they are just to stubborn to admit that they are feeling the pinch like everyone else and are not able to fill planes from DUB anymore like they used to.

Nor did I say that everyone who travels with Ryanair is stupid – clearly people each have their own motivations for travel and their own criteria for judging whether they are getting “value for money” from that travel

Myself, fellow forum member Danny Jones and a few others are having a drinking day in Dublin in a few days, each of us having paid the grand total of 2 pence for our return flights. I think that very definitely counts as value for money! 😀

Paul

I didn’t say you were stupid. I said that what he says is designed to sucker the stupid, and in that I meant those who believe all his rhetoric (and take it at face value) are stupid. Nor did I say that everyone who travels with Ryanair is stupid – clearly people each have their own motivations for travel and their own criteria for judging whether they are getting “value for money” from that travel – that’s why I’m quite happy with BA, LH, VS, AK/KL, BD, UA, etc, my frequent flyer account, and the sometimes (but not always) higher prices I pay. The only stupid people who travel with Ryanair are those who believe everything he says, those who believe that Ryanair will always be cheapest, and those that get caught out by unexpected ancilliary charges and then whinge about them (as some people do!). But all that doesn’t stop me thinking he’s the scourge of the airline industry.

Andy

Anyhows, seeing as I never have and never will fly with Ryanair, it is largely irrelevent to me. Unforatunately, almost everything he says – be it pro- his own airline or anti- everyone else he has to deal with at some time or another – is just designed to sucker the stupid… Sad fact is that there are an aweful lot of those around these days.

Andy
(off to LA now in paid C-class – checkin, bags, gin and tonics, meals, all included!)

Andy, I’m fine with what you say, I see what you’re saying about double standards, even if I don’t completely agree because of the distribution of costs network wide versus on one route/hub which skews that element.

I think it is a little naive to call people flying Ryanair stupid. I like to think I’m neither stupid nor naive as I understand theirs and BA’s (as a comparison) model very. My partner is a Dr, and I wouldn’t call him stupid or gullible…..but if you want to pay three times as much for a flight then that is fine.

The words that I hear over and over again, from hoteliers, tourism bodies and other organisations when discussing air service need is “they decide on a destination based on where they can go for the lowest fare, and then book everything after that”. So the scenario of applying €10 to every fare means that Dublin may be €10.01 rather than €0.01 to go elsewhere (admittedly the 1p fare is not around at the moment, £1 is generally the lowest including all taxes/charges) and so they will choose to go elsewhere, and therefore demand drops for the Dublin services, which affects load factor, which is the important element of the business models of these airlines.

The point is, it’s not that people stop flying because of €10, it’s the fact that they choose to fly to other destinations and demand drops for the higher charged service. So back to the €5 check-in, that becomes a constant applied to all fares, but the passenger choosing a weekend break would still need to pay €10 more to go to Dublin than say, Riga.

Yes, but again you miss my point. I am not particularly disputing that additional charges applied at only one point on a network will inhibit traffic to and from that point in comparison to other points on the network. And yes, I accept that in an ideal world the cheaper the fare the more it encourages travel. If he wants to throw all of his toys out of Dublin’s pram because of the taxes, that’s just fine by me – demand ebbs and flows for all sorts of reasons, and moving capacity in response is simply good business practice.

But as I said, that isn’t the point at all. My issue is that the imposition of a tax (in this case at Dublin) causes cries of derision from O’Riley, whilst his own imposition of a checkin tax (across his entire network) is fine. Yes, maybe if the cheapest fares are going EUR10.02 rather than EUR0.02 round trip most people will still travel, but the bottom line from Ryanair is always that as far as he’s concerned HIS additional fees and charges are OK whilst everyone else’s aren’t. It is the duality of the standards that is the real issue here. As an aside, just consider the fact that he’s just applied a pay freeze on his pilots – again at right the same time as he’s hiking ancilliary charges for his passengers.

Anyhows, seeing as I never have and never will fly with Ryanair, it is largely irrelevent to me. Unforatunately, almost everything he says – be it pro- his own airline or anti- everyone else he has to deal with at some time or another – is just designed to sucker the stupid… Sad fact is that there are an aweful lot of those around these days.

Andy
(off to LA now in paid C-class – checkin, bags, gin and tonics, meals, all included!)

I’m afraid you have me totally wrong there RDC…

I apologise, I must have misunderstood things you’d written in the past, so apologies. You should have done what I did, and go into the lucrative world of consulting much sooner 😉

Now see you were doing quite well until that. There simply is no logic or defence for arguing that a EUR10 increase in the cost of travel is unacceptable if its applied by the government, but it is acceptable if its applied by the airline. That’s the issue. Having to pay EUR10 extra either drives business away or it doesn’t irrespective of who the EUR10 goes to. But of course Scumbag O’Riley wants the proletariat to believe that the government is evil and he’s a saint. And many of them are stupid enough to believe it (not suggesting you are stupid, by the way). I’ll give him his dues – and I said this previously – he is clever, very clever. Cleverer in fact than many of his customers, which is the one and only reason why his business as successful as it is.

Andy

We may have to agree to disagree on this. As you may know, I am an Aviation Consultant, and a large amount fo my work is involved with EZY/RYR and I understand their cost/income basis very well. I have data on my laptop illustrating the effect on their bottom line of pricing changes at STN for example, and where they have tried to pass that on to customers the effect it has had on bookings. To some extent, they often absorb these costs, but this then affects their bottom line, and they are entitled to make money.

If you do not like flying with these airlines then you will not have booked 1p fares (including all taxes/charges) that many of us have, and therefore you will not be in the mindset of “well it was is cheap it would be rude not to”….and that is what is lost when the airline can no longer absorb the charges (because it erodes their bottomline too much). But where I have booked 1p fares, all included, I wouldn’t have booked them at £10.01 because I didn’t NEED to travel, it was a whim generated purely by low fares.

Another major factor we see (and tourism authorities tell me over and over again, including most recently last week) is that people don’t expect or want to pay lots for their travel for weekend breaks etc. Instead they prefer to book better quality hotels and eat in better restaurants at their destination. The words that I hear over and over again, from hoteliers, tourism bodies and other organisations when discussing air service need is “they decide on a destination based on where they can go for the lowest fare, and then book everything after that”. So the scenario of applying €10 to every fare means that Dublin may be €10.01 rather than €0.01 to go elsewhere (admittedly the 1p fare is not around at the moment, £1 is generally the lowest including all taxes/charges) and so they will choose to go elsewhere, and therefore demand drops for the Dublin services, which affects load factor, which is the important element of the business models of these airlines.

The point is, it’s not that people stop flying because of €10, it’s the fact that they choose to fly to other destinations and demand drops for the higher charged service. So back to the €5 check-in, that becomes a constant applied to all fares, but the passenger choosing a weekend break would still need to pay €10 more to go to Dublin than say, Riga.

If you think it doesn’t have an effect then look at the way bookings dropped off at Norwich when they imposed a £5 departure tax. The Airport finally had a low fares (well FlyBe anyway) offer and then shot themselves in the foot because the airline was having to sell very cheap seats to generate demand, and once £5 was added many passengers decided they had more choice at lower cost at STN and went back to flying from there. Whilst Dublin doesn’t have an alternative airport for those locals (unlike NWI/STN), it does have competitor airports for inbound travellers, and they are spread Europe wide because the destination is no longer the driver behind travel for many people.

For yourself, because you choose to fly with more traditional network carriers, then by default you have the luxury of choosing your destination and paying the fare, because you’re not so price sensitive through your own choice. Furthermore, €10 on a £150 is a much lower % addition than on a €1 fare. For these reason, I wonder if perhaps you cannot relate to the effects of these charges.

You can see yourself that these airlines have generated huge amounts of new travel and have significantly changed the way in which people choose to use their leisure/holiday time. In many cases, the traditional summer holiday has been replaced by multiple short breaks, all as a result of low fares, and when you account for this, then you understand why the “where can I get for the lowest price” effect is so very important.

Now see you were doing quite well until that.

Is that a thawing towards understanding their approach on the other “pick and mix” element I argued about?:dev2::diablo:

Ooooh, I love these sorts of debates, something to get our teeth into, and hopefully helps people understand the industry better.

I thought it might be a comprehensive reply!;)

-Dazza

I appreciate your career was affected by this airline, and I am sorry for that, but sometimes Andy I do wonder whether you can’t see the logic because of your anger?

I’m afraid you have me totally wrong there RDC… I did work in the airline industry at one time, but moved to a much more lucrative consultancy role but still engaged with the aviation industry when Ryanair was still flying BAC 1-11s between Dublin and Luton (and doing it badly, I might add). So I’ve been out of it for well over 10 years now, and Ryanair had nothing to do with my changing my line of business.

The only impact Ryanair and the likes have had on my career (not withstanding the fact that we’ve some good done business with some of the low-costs) is that I now have to drive to Birmingham to fly with a “real” airline like Lufthansa, KLM ior Air France, as British Midland / bmi nolonger provides network services from my local airport at EMA.

But lets be clear about this… It is really only Ryanair I dislike. I have flown bmibaby from EMA on a few occasions (where needs must), I’ve used easyJet several times, and indeed I have flown Southwest quite a few times. It would be fair to say I regard Southwest as the [VERY] acceptable face of the low-cost sector – no baggage charges, no check-in charges, they will do connections (baggage and ticketing), soda and peanuts provided on board without charge, etc… If only Ryanair had really modelled itself on Southwest, O’Riley would have had plenty of mine and my employers money over the years. The problem is the deception – the “always the lowest fare” mantra (provenly untrue at times), the “we never apply fuel surcharges” deception (no, they just put the base fare or the ancilliary fees up instead), the applying unjustified charges (credit card fees way in excess of what the airline incurs), the outright two-facedness (an Irish tax of EUR10 puts passengers off but a Ryanair checkin charge of EUR5 each way does not), the fact that they do everything they can to avoid complying with EU law (compensation for delays/cancellations, etc)… There’s plenty more stuff. Sure, plenty of the other low-costs do some of these things – but its only Ryanair that does them all. As an airline, they have single-handedly dragged the industry down with them.

On the other hand, if you like to pay £150 for your return with BA and have the free bag and free cup of tea then you can, but if you prefer to pay £150 with BA but then only take hand baggage anyway then you start paying for things you’re not using…and even worse…subsidising those who do want to check-in a bag because the cost is split across all passengers!

Always did prefer this approach, always will… That’s why I fly “real” airlines both on business AND when almost always I’m paying myself – I will accept that on a few occasions there is no choice and flying a low-cost is a necessary evil, or the only logical choice due not to cost but to convenience.

I’m not having a go, you know I think your input is great to many topics, but I do sometimes feel you go MOL/RYR bashing because of a grudge (and you’re entitled to that) rather than through sensible analysis.

Nope, no grudge… See above. I do, however, hate what O’Riley has done to the industry, and the affect its had on the poor sods who work in it now. As I said, there is an acceptable face to low-cost airlines, but its Southwest and not Ryanair.

In the case of the €10 then yes, it will make a difference because it will effect those who buy the cheapest seats and put bums on seats. The €5 for check-in is RYR’s problem, i.e. they cannot keep costs low enough for all travellers and so will price some out of the market, but in the case of the Tourist Tax, the airline is loosing passengers at the lower end of it’s market because if you only pay €1 for a flight because it’s cheap then you may think twice before paying €11, accepting that all other elements remain static (taxes and discretionary costs).

Now see you were doing quite well until that. There simply is no logic or defence for arguing that a EUR10 increase in the cost of travel is unacceptable if its applied by the government, but it is acceptable if its applied by the airline. That’s the issue. Having to pay EUR10 extra either drives business away or it doesn’t irrespective of who the EUR10 goes to. But of course Scumbag O’Riley wants the proletariat to believe that the government is evil and he’s a saint. And many of them are stupid enough to believe it (not suggesting you are stupid, by the way). I’ll give him his dues – and I said this previously – he is clever, very clever. Cleverer in fact than many of his customers, which is the one and only reason why his business as successful as it is.

Andy

I can’t wait for the reply to this one!:D

-Dazza

I know, I know. I’m not having a go. Sorry Andy!

I appreciate your career was affected by this airline,

I can’t wait for the reply to this one!:D

-Dazza

Its amazing how Scumbag O’Riley seems to think that the Irish government’s EUR10.00 tax will damage his passenger numbers, and yet his airline’s own EUR5.00 each way online “checkin tax” he’s introducing in May is OK!!! What a t**t that man is!

Andy

I appreciate your career was affected by this airline, and I am sorry for that, but sometimes Andy I do wonder whether you can’t see the logic because of your anger?

I read an interesting piece the other day in which US Airways was praising other US carriers for their introduction of ancillary charges, essentially “pick and mix” flying. I know you keep thinking that MOL adds costs left right and centre, and you are right, but he has shareholders to deliver to, and has to do this just as the airlines that you think are so heroic do. So MOL attracts you in with a low fare and then makes you add on extras, big whoopy do….the others start the other way round, they charge a higher fare, but include everything to start with. So going back to my pick and mix analagy, think back to going into woolworths (who? what? where?), pick and mix as a product worked well because you could buy what you wanted. If you liked fizzy cola bottles, but not cherry lips then you could buy just fizzy cola bottles, but if you liked both you could choose to buy both (and/or whatever else you wanted). Otherwise you had to buy a ready mixed bag, which also included those strawberry laces that you hate, but they were there and you couldn’t do anything about it.

The same is true of modern flying, if you want to pay £30 for a fare and then add a bag at £9 (or whatever price it is now) and then add a cup of tea onboard for £3 and end up spending £42 per leg, or £84 in total then that should is fine, especially if you decide you can do away with the bag and carry it onboard and would prefer to carry on a bottle of coke. I admit that charging for non-discretionary items, such as online check-in, seems a bit much but I guess the end result is the same, he could put up his fares, or he can keep them lower and make you pay it…..the point is, this becomes just clever marketing, not ripping people off, the cost has to be paid somehow. On the other hand, if you like to pay £150 for your return with BA and have the free bag and free cup of tea then you can, but if you prefer to pay £150 with BA but then only take hand baggage anyway then you start paying for things you’re not using…and even worse…subsidising those who do want to check-in a bag because the cost is split across all passengers!

I’m not having a go, you know I think your input is great to many topics, but I do sometimes feel you go MOL/RYR bashing because of a grudge (and you’re entitled to that) rather than through sensible analysis.

In the case of the €10 then yes, it will make a difference because it will effect those who buy the cheapest seats and put bums on seats. The €5 for check-in is RYR’s problem, i.e. they cannot keep costs low enough for all travellers and so will price some out of the market, but in the case of the Tourist Tax, the airline is loosing passengers at the lower end of it’s market because if you only pay €1 for a flight because it’s cheap then you may think twice before paying €11, accepting that all other elements remain static (taxes and discretionary costs).

Its amazing how Scumbag O’Riley seems to think that the Irish government’s EUR10.00 tax will damage his passenger numbers, and yet his airline’s own EUR5.00 each way online “checkin tax” he’s introducing in May is OK!!! What a t**t that man is!

Andy

i now fear for dsa airport how long can it gon on with so little traffic

To be fair, it’s already been reduced, down from 3 times a day to 2 flights a day for this summer.

Bad news, but good news for LBA – it isn’t been reduced!