Mosquito – Canadian Press Report

There is a meeting tonight and wednesday evenging to discuss the options for the Mossie and the Hurricane.
There are some great pics on the “other” forum of C-FHMS in storage in Calgary. She looks fairly sound considering…

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26946

Never thought that the spruce used in England during WW2 was Canadian – never really considered it as being other that from Europe somewhere, likewise I haven’t considered that the spruce I purchase from Spruce ‘n’ Speciality in the USA (or is it the USSA – United Socialist States of America now that the have spent all that tax payers money buying banks) was sourced from Canada.

It seems the more you change, the more it stays the same, I think its called convergance.

As Tango Charlie says preserve what can be used. I know that when I sit in the seat of my former RAAF Tiger Moth (VH-JRS was A17-300), I wonder who during WW2 sat in that seat and learnt to fly and what happened to them.

Replace as required

No, a large percentage of the airframe i guess will be reclaimable. Use what can be safely retained and add new timber where required. The Proctors we are rebuilding will retain a good percentage of their original Canadian spruce but without question new wood HAS to go in to replace damaged and in some cases rotten material. What we will end up with are airworthy Proctors rebuilt to the manufacturers plans but including a large percentage of their original structure using the latest glues that will last. We will probably go for ceconite covering rather then original Irish linen in the interest of longevity and ease of maintenance. I agree that it would be great to see a completely original Mosquito or indeed Proctor that has had nothing replaced other then service components but thats a fantasy. Far rather see a rebuilt machine flying using some of the original structure then to look at a static example unable to fly due to safety concerns regarding its structural integrity.

New wood and new glue and back to flying – what a great idea!!

Put a fibreglass replica in a museum in its place – they look very real these days. Fellow in New Zealand is making very nice new wood fuselages, but you need the metal fittings.

Seems to be the norm for airworthy restorations.

And if they fly I am not complaining.

‘Rebuilt with new wood and glues’ ? Are you suggesting a new Mosquito by throwing away the structure??

Mosquito Returning?

If a buyer and restorer can not be found in Canada why not let her return home! Judging by the interest shown in the Mosquito here, i am sure that were “A Mosquito to the sky” restoration fund put in place it would have plenty of subscribers and donations to assist such a worth while restoration! Since the tragic loss of the last Mosquito, enthusiasts have been praying for someone with the vision and capital do get one back in the air and should they succeed You could guarantee the airshow appeal, the sight sound and its speed, an intoxicating thought and prospect. Re built with new wood and modern glues, hangered and pampered she theoretically should last and delight for generations to come. Merlins seem to be in reasonable supply i can only hope that it happens sooner then later. Better to have tried and failed, then not tried at all!

Reading on another forum I see there was a Special Meeting at the Calgary Aerospace Museum last week to discuss the future of the aircraft.

The museum made it clear that ”that they have no desire to retain the airplane”.

http://www.mossie.org/forum/read.php?1,3657

It is now up to the Council to decide what to do with it, and they have set a deadline of March next year to come up with an answer. (Thats a lot of thinking time).

Thanks Richard

Richard,

Thank you clearing up some points and also advising of the proceses and channels a museum has to go through or abide by to sell one of their exhibits.
Peter,
Moderator

Just to clarify…

I will bypass many of the questions that have been already been addressed.

S89, I think there is some misunderstanding here about CAPA and what it is and does. It is a voluntary association of aviation museums in Canada. It also includes some military museums with an aviation component to them.

The Aero Space Museum of Calgary is a member of CAPA and a signatory to various agreements with it. CAPA is an acronym for the Canadian Aeronautical Preservation Association. It does not have ‘chapters’ so I don’t understand some of your comments and concerns.

Are you perhaps confusing it with the Canadian Aviation Historical Society? There is a chapter of that organization in Calgary. I just reformed it this past September after it had been absent from town for some 12 or 14 years and now serve as its current organizer/chapter president.

In re the second Hurricane and Swordfish, I could say much on these as I had some hand in them, but these are side issues to what is happening with Mosquito.

cheers,
r.

Not sure if you are so much interested in the issues, aircraft and information so much as arguing for the sake of it.

No Richard what I’m interested in is the facts which seem to be only being hand out in small parts. As for the issue well simple the issue is that you have an aircraft the Mossie that the Museum wants to sell and you and other folks are jumping up and down screaming bloody murder.

If people have written to city council in support of selling the airplane, and they likely have, they have not sent copies to me, so the statement stands. And I welcome hearing and reading all perspective on the situation.

Your correct folks have written to support the City and Museum what I took too was that you stated that its been 100% in favor of stopping the sell. This reaks of you trying to push your Soap box.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet Yagen’s Mosquito and what has happened elsewhere and elsewhen. Laws and regulations are not perfect and nor is their enforcement. That does not mean one should disregard them or toss them out as you seem to suggest. As I stated previously, if someone choses to disregard the process because it is profitable to do so, as clearly has been done, condeming the rules hardly seems productive. So no, I do not agree with you. Shall we condemn legislators, enforcers, courts and society because someone knowingly breaks the law and sometimes gets away with it? Not my way of doing things.

Correct because it is a Mossie and was an Ex-RCAF aircraft that no one in CAPA even blink an eye over its sell. Can you prove that Jerry illegally purchase the Mossie because that is what your stating in the above comments. What about the other items I’ve brought up like the CWH Corsair and the Ex-RCAF PBY with Combat History all of these have been sold and as far as I recall not a peep was heard from CAPA or Heritage Canada.

As Tom stated, the Calgary museum is a member of CAPA, the City is not as it is not an aviation museum. Regardless, federal legislation does apply to how and what they do with the airplanes.

So then your saying that there is no legal reason then that the City shouldn’t be part of CAPA since THEY ARE THE ONES WHO OWN A MAJORITY OF THE AIRCRAFT as you and others have stated.

Federal funding through Cultural Properties is not available for restoration and their involvment is not necessary or appropriate until a situation arrises where the airplane may be exported.

Alright fine then what about the Heritage Funds then why haven’t they been tap this would seem to be me the source of funds that I would be trying to get.

Don’t know how long you have been around museums or how many you have worked for, been a member of, consulted with, etc., but it is a fairly common situation to have artifacts, and in this case airframes, in storage for considerable lengths of time. This may not be ideal, but it is a reality. The Royal Tyrrell (dinosaur) museum has a backlog of over 100 year’s worth of bones to be cleaned, identified and processed at their current rate of work. So be it. Shall we condem them and anyone who supports them for this reality?

I’ve been involved with many museum for over 30 Years Sir but you can’t compare Fossels to Aircraft two different types of item that require two different way for preservation. And I’m guessing the Tyrrell Musuem doesn’t have any of their stuff in storage in a Dungy Stone Building.

In this case, the Museum acted behind closed doors and knowingly tried to circumvent the processes to which it has agreed, for the sake of the money and outside of the best interests of the aircraft, the institution, its members, the city and the vintage aviation community in general. That is my assessment of what was going on. When I found out, I did something about it. You are free to disagree with this interpretation and with my actions.

Accourding to you but when I talk to the folks in Calgary they said that is was put to a public discussion and that its been a well know fact for the past 5 Years that the City was looking to sell off the Mossie to help with the restoration Hurricane and funding for the Museum.

So Richard,

I would like to ask this question since you were one of the folks who help form the Museum why did you let the Swordfish be sold and the other Hurricane, also I’m wondering are you still part of the Museum and if not then I think you should come clean on that so we can all understand you reason behind not wanting to let this sell go thru.

Also Richard why isn’t there a CAPA Chapter in Calgary I find this very strange I was lead to believe that there used to be one that was assocated with the Museum if so care to discuss why it fold(this might be another thread topic).

Also before any of the Mods send me a little nasty gram most of you know who I am so lets just say it safe to say that the question I’ve ask would be the same one’s I would have ask anyone including myself.

And yes Richard I find any and all Heritage Laws are rather stupid when it comes to Vintage Aircraft and Warbirds but thats another thread now isn’t it.:diablo:

Hey Scorpion

I guess this is the full half hour…

Not sure if you are so much interested in the issues, aircraft and information so much as arguing for the sake of it.

If people have written to city council in support of selling the airplane, and they likely have, they have not sent copies to me, so the statement stands. And I welcome hearing and reading all perspective on the situation.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet Yagen’s Mosquito and what has happened elsewhere and elsewhen. Laws and regulations are not perfect and nor is their enforcement. That does not mean one should disregard them or toss them out as you seem to suggest. As I stated previously, if someone choses to disregard the process because it is profitable to do so, as clearly has been done, condeming the rules hardly seems productive. So no, I do not agree with you. Shall we condemn legislators, enforcers, courts and society because someone knowingly breaks the law and sometimes gets away with it? Not my way of doing things.

As Tom stated, the Calgary museum is a member of CAPA, the City is not as it is not an aviation museum. Regardless, federal legislation does apply to how and what they do with the airplanes.

Federal funding through Cultural Properties is not available for restoration and their involvment is not necessary or appropriate until a situation arrises where the airplane may be exported.

Don’t know how long you have been around museums or how many you have worked for, been a member of, consulted with, etc., but it is a fairly common situation to have artifacts, and in this case airframes, in storage for considerable lengths of time. This may not be ideal, but it is a reality. The Royal Tyrrell (dinosaur) museum has a backlog of over 100 year’s worth of bones to be cleaned, identified and processed at their current rate of work. So be it. Shall we condem them and anyone who supports them for this reality?

In this case, the Museum acted behind closed doors and knowingly tried to circumvent the processes to which it has agreed, for the sake of the money and outside of the best interests of the aircraft, the institution, its members, the city and the vintage aviation community in general. That is my assessment of what was going on. When I found out, I did something about it. You are free to disagree with this interpretation and with my actions.

cheers,
r.

1) Calgary’s Museum is a member of CAPA, this I have verified.

Tom yes the Museum is part of CAPA but Richard stated that the City of Calgary isn’t, now since they own a majority of the aircraft that are part of the Museum shouldn’t they also belong to CAPA or is their some sort of legal reason that they can’t.

2) The Yeagan Mossie is its own issue, I have been digging on this one and while I won’t comment till I have all the facts in my hands, it appears from what I have learned so far there are more questions than answers surrounding this one. But again like this Mossie, not enough fact to do more than speculate yet, and as I have already shown I won’t speculate.

While it may be its own issue and I will give you that, look at from a Non-Canadians view. Here we have a RCAF Mossie that was sold and as far as I can tell no one in CAPA or Heritage Canada try to even stop it. If I was looking to purchase the Calgary’s Mossie I would be using this example as the base of my case, goes back to the double stander that I have been bring up.

3) Canadian Museums and Associatons have been in contact with the Calgary
Museum since the last problem. The point is really mute at this stage.

Tom how can you say its mute at this stage it goes to the heart of the problem, CAPA and the Canadian Museum and Associatons have know that Calgary was looking to sell of the Mossie so I ask again where have all of these folks been for the past 3 Years.

Errors have been made, they are being corrected

I agree with this statement but lets hope that what ever is done its done with far and balance to all involved.

Again as has been the case with this whole story…there still seems to be a lack of accurate information leading to alot of speculation.

Correct but it seems to me allot of the information is come from the side that doesn’t want the Mossie to be sold and this side seems to skirt question put to them about the subject. it would be nice to have all the facts present from both side and it would be nice when question are ask of folks that they don’t skirt the question be trying to re-direct the question.

Once more hoping this all works out the best for all involved.

Tom so do I and I’m guessing everyone else who has read or posted on this thread, I do hope that if it doesn’t get sold that it along with the Hurri be put into a restoration program.

Morning

Scorpion89

Just a couple things from the above post.

1) Calgary’s Museum is a member of CAPA, this I have verified.

2) The Yeagan Mossie is its own issue, I have been digging on this one and while I won’t comment till I have all the facts in my hands, it appears from what I have learned so far there are more questions than answers surrounding this one. But again like this Mossie, not enough fact to do more than speculate yet, and as I have already shown I won’t speculate.

3) Canadian Museums and Associatons have been in contact with the Calgary
Museum since the last problem. The point is really mute at this stage.

Errors have been made, they are being corrected

Again as has been the case with this whole story…there still seems to be a lack of accurate information leading to alot of speculation.

Once more hoping this all works out the best for all involved.

Tom H

I am hoping to be involved in its restoration should it be retained in this part of the country and would love to get your imput as well as that from others.

So Richard let me get this correct you are hoping that you will be part of the restoration if the Mossie stay in Canada, well that begs to be ask then why haven’t you been part of it over the past 10 Years instead of letting it sit in the Stone Building you could have start the restoration work and who know might even be close to being done with it.

I hear you on the money issue. One of the good things about the Cultural Properties situation in Canada is that they can provide grants to repatriate or retain significant artifacts, so a high value does not necessarily eliminate a smaller museum.

So then can they help to provide money for the restoration if so then why haven’t you step forward and fill out the paperwork to receive said funds.

I mentioned above that I continue to receive copies of notes which people are sending to the Mayor and aldermen. I would like to share one I received today, notable for its passion, wit and intelligence. Enjoy.

After reading the below letter I find first it lack and humor and be-little the mayor and Aldermen I know if I was either I would push even harder for it to be sold.

Also as I read the letter the one thing that struck me was how the person accused the City of selling it to an English Collector we have yet to determan who is the person/group that wants to purchase the airframe how do we know it might not be well know Canadian Collector who happens to want to have the aircraft restored in its place of birth.

Is “How-Town” Really “Cow-Town”
>
> To Mayor Dave Bronconnier and Aldermen of the City of Calgary
>
> As a teacher of Canadian history in a central Canadian city, I do my best
> to daily dismantle teenage stereotypes wherever I find them, especially
> about Canada’s West. When the Ontario government decided in its infinite
> wisdom to shrink the
> mandatory Grade 10 history course by cutting out the settlement of Western
> Canada, I refused to blindly follow. I told my students that you cannot
> understand the greatness of Canada until you comprehend the sacrifices
> made by Western Canadians to
> achieve their vision of a prosperous and influential West.
> Still, I continually fight historical labeling and wild generalizations
> about Western Canadians: “Everyone’s a Cro-Magnon cowboy,” or “Alberta is
> Canada’s gas station,” or my favourite – “Calgary is ‘Cow-Town.'” I
> counter by trumpeting the
> flowering of Western Canadian culture in the arts, by warning that
> Albertans are Canada’s new power brokers, and that Calgary is really
> “How-Town,” a place where great accomplishments happen.
> So will you please tell me how I explain to my students why the Mayor and
> city council of Calgary (excepting whistle-blower Ald. Ric McIver) are
> selling off a piece of Canadian heritage – a Second World War-era De
> Havilland Mosquito bomber to a
> collector in the United Kingdom? Have you lost your senses? Don’t start by
> telling me it is a fiscal necessity. Has anyone even called Premier
> Stelmach or Culture Minister Goudreau to see if they’ll cut you a cheque?
> I mean, how ironic is it to have
> $16 billion in Alberta’s Heritage Fund and your city council operates
> behind closed doors to sell off a machine that symbolizes what workers and
> warriors used to fight the scourge of Nazism? My goodness, do you people
> even know what a fascist is?
> Well, let me tell you, fascists do NOT like a free press, so I thank brave
> souls like Shawn Logan from Sun Media for breaking this story and CTV
> Calgary for spreading it across Canada. As for the Calgary Herald, that
> protector of citizens’
> interests, what about their investigations into this travesty? Heck, I
> searched their 30 day archive and the only “mosquito” references involved
> the West Nile and the Australian Open. Oh dear. I guess politicians still
> have back pockets.
> No, Mr. Mayor, no (dis)Honourable Aldermen, this situation simply won’t
> do. You cannot expect me to welcome my students into the historic halls of
> Canadian and Western glory when elected officials such as yourselves are
> selling off the assets in
> back. Today only about thirty preserved De Havilland Mosquitos remain, and
> with their wooden construction, none are airworthy. Shame on you if you do
> not take up the astounding offer by the Nanton Lancaster Society Air
> Museum to restore this plane
> free of charge!
> Right this wrong, Mr. Mayor. You are not the leader of Cow-Town. You are
> in charge of “How-Town,” the “Heart of the New West.” Get it done.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JN

Appreciate the offer Bruce

I am hoping to be involved in its restoration should it be retained in this part of the country and would love to get your imput as well as that from others.

I hear you on the money issue. One of the good things about the Cultural Properties situation in Canada is that they can provide grants to repatriate or retain significant artifacts, so a high value does not necessarily eliminate a smaller museum.

I mentioned above that I continue to receive copies of notes which people are sending to the mayor and aldermen. I would like to share one I received today, notable for its passion, wit and intelligence. Enjoy.

Is “How-Town” Really “Cow-Town”
>
> To Mayor Dave Bronconnier and Aldermen of the City of Calgary
>
> As a teacher of Canadian history in a central Canadian city, I do my best
> to daily dismantle teenage stereotypes wherever I find them, especially
> about Canada’s West. When the Ontario government decided in its infinite
> wisdom to shrink the
> mandatory Grade 10 history course by cutting out the settlement of Western
> Canada, I refused to blindly follow. I told my students that you cannot
> understand the greatness of Canada until you comprehend the sacrifices
> made by Western Canadians to
> achieve their vision of a prosperous and influential West.
> Still, I continually fight historical labeling and wild generalizations
> about Western Canadians: “Everyone’s a Cro-Magnon cowboy,” or “Alberta is
> Canada’s gas station,” or my favourite – “Calgary is ‘Cow-Town.'” I
> counter by trumpeting the
> flowering of Western Canadian culture in the arts, by warning that
> Albertans are Canada’s new power brokers, and that Calgary is really
> “How-Town,” a place where great accomplishments happen.
> So will you please tell me how I explain to my students why the Mayor and
> city council of Calgary (excepting whistle-blower Ald. Ric McIver) are
> selling off a piece of Canadian heritage – a Second World War-era De
> Havilland Mosquito bomber to a
> collector in the United Kingdom? Have you lost your senses? Don’t start by
> telling me it is a fiscal necessity. Has anyone even called Premier
> Stelmach or Culture Minister Goudreau to see if they’ll cut you a cheque?
> I mean, how ironic is it to have
> $16 billion in Alberta’s Heritage Fund and your city council operates
> behind closed doors to sell off a machine that symbolizes what workers and
> warriors used to fight the scourge of Nazism? My goodness, do you people
> even know what a fascist is?
> Well, let me tell you, fascists do NOT like a free press, so I thank brave
> souls like Shawn Logan from Sun Media for breaking this story and CTV
> Calgary for spreading it across Canada. As for the Calgary Herald, that
> protector of citizens’
> interests, what about their investigations into this travesty? Heck, I
> searched their 30 day archive and the only “mosquito” references involved
> the West Nile and the Australian Open. Oh dear. I guess politicians still
> have back pockets.
> No, Mr. Mayor, no (dis)Honourable Aldermen, this situation simply won’t
> do. You cannot expect me to welcome my students into the historic halls of
> Canadian and Western glory when elected officials such as yourselves are
> selling off the assets in
> back. Today only about thirty preserved De Havilland Mosquitos remain, and
> with their wooden construction, none are airworthy. Shame on you if you do
> not take up the astounding offer by the Nanton Lancaster Society Air
> Museum to restore this plane
> free of charge!
> Right this wrong, Mr. Mayor. You are not the leader of Cow-Town. You are
> in charge of “How-Town,” the “Heart of the New West.” Get it done.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JN

cheers,
r.
>

This is encouraging

If the process awakens interest in the aircraft, and guarantees a better future, with an organisation who actually want the aircraft, then all to the good.

I, and the museum will be happy to offer advice and assistance with it, wherever it ends up!

It must be remembered however, if the City of Calgary do decide to part with it, they have now set a fair market value. That could be a lot of money for the average museum to afford.

Bruce

“Is this the 5 minute arguement…?”

Not too much to report re Mossie yet. Just to clarify a couple of points, the City of Calgary is not a party nor signatory to the CAPA organization and its agreements and is therefore not bound by them. Not being subject experts, they were not aware of any such outfit nor the agreements and processes that may have guided their actions in contemplating a sale outside the country.

The City is bound by federal legislation concerning the handling and export of what we term ‘moveable cultural property’ (regardless of what we may think of these laws and their purposes).

With this issue now in the open, the owners of the Mosquito are asking for and getting a very quick education on processes, agreements and their legal position and obligations.

The Cultural Properties office of Hertiage Canada has now also become proactive in seeking information about this deal and about the significance of the Mosquito to Canada from knowledgeable people in the vintage aircraft community.

I continue to get copied in on emails that people are sending to our mayor and aldermen on the subject -which to date are 100% against selling it out of the country. There may well be other perspectives on the topic, but I have not received any.

It may be worth a new thread to clarify some of the legal stuff around keeping and exporting items. Seems to be a lot of misconception on the point. Any item must past fairly rigorous tests to qualify as an item of ‘movable cultural property’, on the basis of national significance because of its artistic, cultural, historic or technological merit. These are of course big and fuzzy categories which are much debated -as they should be. But having worked with this outfit and its standards for over 25 years, I can tell you that the bar is set high in order for items to qualify.

In the meantime, our City fathers (and mothers) are gathering information and have yet made no statements about public debate, dates or deadlines.

As a consequence of the public awareness around this situation and the prospect of the Mosquito being offered for sale domestically (should the City still decide to dispose of it), some other museums and collectors in Canada are now taking a very active interest and are counting their coins….

That’s all I know for now.

cheers,
r.

Scorpion89

Apology accepted and I extend one of my own.

We do not know each other or the backgrounds involved…so as long as it stays civil I have no problem discussing anything.

Tom H

Oh Bruce,

This isn’t personal for me its called what is best for the airframes and that is all I really care about. now if anyone really cares to debate Heritage Laws then fine I or someone else should start a thread but I think if such thread does happen then the Mods need to let it run it course because their are some very different oppion’s on this from all over the World.

Oh Rob 😉

Yes, I know where you are coming from, but it is easy to post the wrong thing in the heat of the moment. Lets keep this thread to the Mosquito. The why’s and wherefore’s of ALL countries heritage laws are indeed best left for another thread. Just do me a favour, and take a deep breath before you reply to anyone on that particular thread!

Bruce